Roger Kuhn and Landa Lakes: On Two Spirit Identity and Cultural Expression

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Roger Kuhn: Nice to see and be with you all this evening, this afternoon, wherever you may be tuning in. Great to also be here with my friend, Landa. Nice to see you, Landa.

Landa Lakes: Hi. Good to see you, Roger.

Roger: Yes. Well, I just want to take a quick moment and introduce myself to folks and then I'll turn it over to you to introduce yourself. So, as we say where I'm from in Muscogee, --Words spoken in Muscogee**, my name is Roger Kuhn. I am a member of the Poarch Creek Nation. I am from the Wind Clan. And right now, I am in Kumeyaay territory, also known as Southern California, specifically around the San Diego region. So, I'm going to turn this over to Landa if you want to give a brief introduction to yourself and maybe name the territory you're on at the moment as well.

Landa: --Words spoken in Chickasaw** Hi, I'm Landa Lakes. I'm from the Chickasaw Tribe. I'm from the Tupelo community specifically. Right now, I am right here in San Francisco. So Yelamu is the traditional name that the Ohlone called this area and that's where I'm at right now. So, I just want to acknowledge that.

Roger: Wonderful. And for those that are listening live, if you want to know more about the Native territory you are on, you can go to native-land.ca, enter in either your zip code or the town that you're in. And if you are in what is now known as North America, likely you will be able to learn more about the Native population on whose territory you now are living on or visiting. So you can always do that anywhere you travel. I always think it's a good idea to become familiar with the Native people on whose land you are on.

So Landa, thanks for being here. Now for those that don't know, Landa and I have known each other for quite some time. My very first Two-Spirit gathering that I ever went to back in Oklahoma, probably in the early 2000s maybe, Landa was one of the first folks that introduced themselves to me and welcomed me into the community. And when I moved to the Bay Area, Landa was also there for me and welcomed me back into the community here in the Bay as well. So an honor to be with you as a friend, and I'm also here as a fan. I am a fan of Landa Lakes. And so I want to just chat with you a little bit tonight and really learn from you about how you have used your art as a platform and a pathway to activism.

I've seen some of your performances and they speak to so many issues impacting Two-Spirit and Native and Indigenous peoples, not just here in the US, but really across the globe. And I've also been a fan of the subtlety of your art. I think your style of drag for me is deeply political, deeply artistic, and also incredibly humorous and funny, and also sometimes really touching. So if you would share a little bit with us about your idea about art as activism.

Landa: Art as activism. You know, it’s actually one of the reasons why we created the Weaving Spirits Two-Spirit Performance Arts Festival is because we do have this platform of drag and it does give us that ability to formulate ideas such as like, you know, what's actually happening within the Native community.

Currently when you look at what's going on right now, ICWA is sort of in the news because the Supreme Court is looking at it. And it's actually something that touches a lot of Indigenous people's lives. --Roger: Yes.** Much more so than a lot of people would know. Even within my own family, we have, you know, children that have been taken away for one reason or another. Unfortunately, the sad part of things that happen within like my home in Oklahoma is that there is a lot of drug use. There's a lot of drug abuse. So you know, sometimes the social services will step in and they'll take the child away. And when they take that child away, then it is up to us as a political body, not as just being the race of being like Native American, but as a political body to have a say in where our children are going. And it's very important for us that they stay within our culture. And so when children are taken away, we sort of want to ensure that they stay within our tribe. Or if they can't be within our tribe, then maybe with other Native people. Just something to give them pride.

Unfortunately, you know, sad but true, once upon a time, a lot of people were really encouraged by the Christian churches to go out and adopt children. And they did that. They did that not only here in the US, but also in Canada. And they went out and they adopted them and brought them into their families and didn't really give them a lot of instruction on, you know, what it was to raise up an Indigenous Child. And so quite often these children felt alone and different and not really, fully, a part of the family.

And so when you look at something like that, then you can say to yourself, how can I put this into a performance? Because I want to tell people about it without also giving, without, you know, giving them like this boohoo sort of a story. But just to enlighten the audience in some way of something that's happening.

And I think that's what's great about drag is like, it's a platform, regardless of how you see it, it's a platform that you can go ahead, and you can talk about these issues, these really tough issues. And ICWA is one of them, Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women is one of them. You know, there's a lot of things that affect us as Indigenous people, and we want to be able to get that off our chest sometimes. And the best way to do that is through performance, because I believe that's what art is really about. It's about love, it's about pain, it's about all those things. And anytime you have an art form, I think it's your responsibility to go ahead and let other people know what you're doing or how you're feeling so that they can also relate to it in some way.

Roger: Yeah. ICWA, for those that are listening, stands for the Indian Child Welfare Act, which was established here in the United States. And I believe it was 1979, 1978-79, late 1970s, it was 79. And there's a case currently in the Supreme Court that's being argued right now, which is really about sovereignty, right? In many ways, ICWA is about sovereignty, not just a racial issue, this is a sovereignty issue for Native people as well, and self-determination around our members of our community, et cetera.

Your name in and of itself is satire, political, and also, I think, a very activist perspective. Would you share with folks a little bit about the story of your name, Landa Lakes?

Landa: Sure. I'll start off by saying that, you know, I didn't initially start off as Landa Lakes. Initially when I was doing drag, I was known as Autumn Westbrook, which is a very pretty name.

Roger: --Roger laughs** Miss Autumn Westbrook, would you have a Southern accent? It sounds very Southern.

Landa: --Both laughing** And that's how I started off in Oklahoma, very pretty and everything. But then when I was out here in California, I wanted to have one that was a little more campy but also had a political edge to it. And of course, Land O’Lakes Butter has this little Indigenous mascot, or used to have this Indigenous mascot on the front. And I wanted to sort of poke fun a little bit at that mascot. So, I took on the moniker of Landa Lakes, which inspired people to give me all this Land O'Lakes merchandise.

--Both laughing**

I was always like, oh, well, thank you, but I don't really support the truth of a mascot. That's what my name is really about. It's about making fun of it. And even when they removed the Indigenous person from it, there was a little bit of controversy about that too, when they removed it from the brand. Even among some Indigenous people, some Indigenous people wanted it to remain because like an Indigenous artist did it. But I always figure it like this. Okay, if you're going to use our image as indigenous person, how do we benefit from that? How do we benefit from that? I can see how you benefit because it gives you a sense of Americana. This is homegrown. That's the great use of an Indigenous mascot is, you know, this, we're homegrown, we're Americana. But where does it benefit the Indigenous person?

I think that once upon a time when we didn't really have much representation in the media or anywhere else, there might've been a time where we as Indigenous people were like, oh yeah, I'm so proud to see this mascot here, this mascot there. But there's so many things that sort of like come off of that, that is just not good. When you have a school that might call themselves the Cherokees and then the opposing team will put up signs that say, we're going to make you walk the Trail of Tears. You know, a very serious thing. And everything, that's some of the issues that we face with mascots, you know, and even the tomahawk chop, that was terrible too. There's a lot of terrible things that come from mascots themselves.

So, I enjoy using the name because it does make people think about it. And I just, you know, for me, I think it's important to say that I don't really approve of mascots from living people, from living people. I would rather you go with a color or something like that rather than a living culture.

Roger: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I was thinking about how… --thoughtful pause** You were talking about like, you know, the usage of mascots and the character. I guess that's always a question I've been curious about. Is Landa a character, or is Landa a part of personality? Sometimes I'm not sure how to like address folks who do drag as art. Is Landa something that's a character, if I were to say like your character, Landa?

Landa: I would say that if… what we usually refer to it as our drag persona. Our persona is just that sometimes people sort of like don't necessarily fall within that line of like separation between the persona that they've created in themselves and that sort of blends and sort of merges and so forth. That's why a lot of times when you'll see me at like the pow-wow or something, when I'm bringing in a flag or something, you know, they don't introduce me as Landa Lakes. They go by my name, Miko Thomas, rather than that because in those moments, I'm not a character. I'm not this persona. I am myself.

Roger: Well, that makes sense. So the persona Landa Lakes in terms of bringing that awareness to the activism within even something like mascots, right? And you were naming the Trail of Tears and for folks that may also not be aware of sort of geographical locations of Native nations, Landa and I are from a similar region. Our tribal nations are from a similar region in what is now called the United States. And of course, our peoples were deeply impacted by the Indian removal policies of the United States government in the late 19th century. And I was thinking back to the Weaving Spirits Festival that I witnessed a couple of years ago and you did such... --thoughtful pause**… I'm still, I think, digesting it artistically, powerful story… that you brought in some of the Brush Arbor girls that were a part of that story. And within that story, what I was really intrigued by was your artistic use of Indigenous narrative, weaving what I would say anthropologists would sort of call like folklore into a story, and also using --thoughtful pause** a really challenging issue and to deliver it to an audience in a way that was my word here, but like digestible for them. And I wanted to know if you could share a little bit about that experience, about that creating of that experience for folks.

Landa: Yes, well, when I create something, a lot of times it really does have to come from me and from my culture. So, a lot of times when you'll see like one of these type of pieces, then I will be bringing in some of my Chickasaw identity in some ways. In this particular story, I really wanted to convey this idea of the spirit world and that, you know, whatever we, what happens to us in this life, there is that next step afterwards. So, it was sort of like a closure in a way. So it was like a repeating circle that went from point A all the way back to point A again, back into the spirit world. And so, with that story, we just followed the life of this two-spirit person that was born and then later on became one of the murdered and missing indigenous women and then her journey afterwards.

Roger: Yeah, that as an audience member, it was profound and MMIW, Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls, Two-Spirits and People is such an epidemic within our culture and our community that is getting minimal attention more in the larger political landscape. And the festival that that - was that the first time it debuted? It debuted at the Weaving Spirits Festival?

Landa: Yes.

Roger: Which I have had the honor of being a participant of. I was a performer a few years back. And I can tell you that those types of experiences are rare where two-spirit folks have an opportunity to get together and share our art with each other and with an audience. You and I participated in something like that in our youth back in New York City. And I know we've also both separately been a part of the Two-Spirit Cabaret that's out of Toronto with a theater group up there. And now you're doing something here alongside a co-curator with you, Javier, in establishing this Weaving Spirits Festival. And I'm curious if you can share a little bit around your vision behind the Weaving Spirits Festival and any plans in the future about what we may see soon.

Landa: Sure. Well, to start off with, I'm always a strong proponent of creating Indigenous spaces. Because so often within the Indigenous community, we find ourselves being the one person. Being just like that solo person, the one person there. So when I created something like the Brush Barber Girls very early on, we created our first Indigenous drag space. And that was 18 years ago. And that was pretty amazing in and of itself. So then when we came forward, me and Javier were talking after a pow-wow meeting, our Two-Spirit pow-wow meeting.

And my thing is I always want people to feel welcome and belonging. Because I didn't always feel that way in the past. And so I wanted to make sure that we had a really welcoming spirit and to be able to highlight Indigenous people. And me and Javier were talking. And I sort of like said, yeah, this is what I see. This is what I picture. I would love to have like this Two-Spirit performance space that we can really highlight Indigenous people, both local and some that's outside of our territory. And before I knew it, Javier had found a space, or had found a grant and said, okay, let's do it. And I was like, oh, okay.

--Both laughing**

So we were able to come together and pull everyone together.

But I think I've probably been heavily influenced by Hanay Geiogamah, who's a playwright. He organized a lot of different things in his lifetime. And he's retired, but he used to work down, I believe, at UCLA. But what I really remember from him is early on, I remember this thing called the New Indians, which was a script that he had written. And I was still in high school and I read it. And it was pretty amazing to me because it was like all Indigenous theater. It was a whole Indigenous theater ensemble. And he had sort of created that.

And outside of that, he also created the American Indian Dance Theater Company as well. --Roger: Hmm.** So a lot of people are familiar with that. And he really created all these little things. So for me, it seemed like it was important for us to create a performance festival just highlighting Two-Spirit people. It's one thing to be the one Indigenous person in the room, but it's also another to be the one Indigenous plus queer person in the room.

So, it was really amazing that we were able to do that. And we were able to invite that first year to get a lot of different artists to come through and perform for us. And now we're looking forward to our future festival, which is going to take place in April of next year. And again, we want to feature artists that I think can really tell really, really cool and interesting stories.

I love to be able to spotlight people and give them that opportunity that they may not necessarily have or they're going to be in another festival that they're sort of like the minority person in that festival. Here they're spotlighted. They're a huge part of it. And I think that's important. Quite often, Indigenous people are invited places to give a land acknowledgement. And once they've done their land acknowledgement, where do they go? Into the shadows and they disappear. It's like, wow, that sounds like the Chickasaws in Alabama and Mississippi and Tennessee, we all just sort of disappeared, huh?

Roger: Yeah. Well, I tell you, I will look forward to seeing, I think I've seen every show that you've done, all the Weaving Spirits Festivals. I think I've been to all of them. Last year's was really, really incredibly powerful. And then I was just before we got on live, I was just talking about Dr. Jennifer Lisa Vest who was in the Weaving Spirits Festival, who actually was just part of Public Programs a couple of weeks ago. So, a lot of these communities are all linked together. And I love that there is this Weaving Spirits Festival because when you and I were younger and back in New York and we did that show, it was part of the Fresh Fruit Festival.

I don't remember, was it called the Two-Spirit Evening or something like that?

Landa: Yeah, it's the Two-Spirit Evening.

Roger: Two-Spirit Evening, I think that was called. And it was really nice. And it was like, wow, that was really, really cool. And I think I had just met you shortly before that, or maybe we'd known each other about a year or something like that. And I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, Landa Lakes is coming, how exciting. And now to see the Weaving Spirits here in the Bay Area, it's also really refreshing because when I think back in the day when I was more active in the music world, I often felt like what you described, like, wow, I'm the only Indigenous person here. I'm the only Two-Spirit person here. My goodness, the representation, the weight of the representation that I feel.

And I oftentimes, my genre of music that I was doing was what folks would call Americana music. So, folks would think that they're getting an Indigenous musician and have this expectation that I was supposed to show up with the hand drum and sing powwow songs or start singing hand drum songs. And it's like, well, I'm a bit of a crooner myself. So now when I see the Weaving Spirit Festival and I think, oh my gosh, there are so many people that are open about their identity and they're returning to the Two-Spirit tradition. It's so beautiful to see and to witness as an artist and also as an audience member.

I want to take a quick moment, though, I'm realizing that there may be folks here tonight who don't even know what you and I are talking about when we say Two-Spirit. So maybe just a quick little aside. And I'm curious if you want to define how you view the word Two-Spirit and maybe how and/or if you identify with that word.

Landa: For myself, yes, I do identify with the term Two-Spirit. And for me -Two-Spirit may not mean the same thing for different people - but for me, it usually means that I fall within that umbrella of the LGBT community. But it also means that I have a spiritual side, a spiritual connection. So, when you say Two-Spirit for me, I think of people who are connected spiritually as well to their traditional ways, or if not their traditional ways, then ways that have been introduced to them as spiritual. And that, for the most part, is what sums up a Two-Spirit person, somebody who not only falls within the LGBT umbrella, but is also very spiritual as well. And so there's practices that go with that. And of course, there is that feel of activism that usually comes with being a Two-Spirit person. But I think first and foremost, it's about that nourishment of your spirit.

Roger: Yeah, beautiful. And it was a term that was introduced in the early 1990s, really as a way to sort of counter a narrative that was very popular in academic spaces, and a really pejorative term that was used. And really, this group of artists, activists, leaders got together and said, we're not going to take that anymore. We're going to use this term and it's the term that caught on.

So, for those that are listening too that, maybe do not identify as Indigenous, I always like to stress that Two-Spirit is our word. It is to be used with us and about us. It's not a word to be co-opted and used for folks that are not Indigenous.

Last week, I was on a radio program and this cis white presenter asked me, is it okay if I use the term Two-Spirit? And my response was, well, you've taken our land, you've taken our culture, taken our language, and now you want to use the colonized term that we use to describe ourselves? You want to take that too? And I think that she got it.

So that is our term. And I will just stress that there are many ways to describe that beautiful rainbow spectrum that some of us may be a part of. And Two-Spirit is our term. It was created by our community, and it was really for our community.

It is a way that I also identify in the world and it wasn't until I myself learned about Two-Spirit that I went, wow, now I finally feel like I belong somewhere. Because in that LGBT+ spectrum you talked about a moment ago, Landa, I often felt like there wasn't quite a place for me here kind of as a place, and yet I'm different. There are things about, I think being Native, whether you grew up on the reservation or not, that is just… an understanding that we have amongst each other. And being a part of Two-Spirit community for me was truly the way that I felt I understood what love and acceptance was.

And I feel that immensely when I'm at the BAAITS Powwow. And out of everything that I've ever done with you as an activist or a community member, a friend, an artist, the work that you and I and the entire BAAITS community have done for the powwow has been one of the most touching experiences of my entire life. And I hold such gratitude for both you and Ruth for what you started… the movement. We have Two-Spirit, public Two-Spirit powwows now literally across the US and Canada. It is so beautiful to see and I'm wondering what that's like for you to, one, have started that beautiful tradition we now have in the Bay Area as one of the founders of it. And you've been there ever since, every year you've been working every year. And also, what it's like for you to see how you have inspired Two-Spirit folks across Turtle Island to do something very similar.

Landa: Well, I'll first start off by saying that one of the things that we built into the Powwow from the very beginning was that welcoming spirit. You're welcome here regardless of your gender. If you come and you identify as a man or a woman or trans or whatever you are, we wanted to make sure that it was welcoming. And one of the major players in that was that there used to be this powwow in Oklahoma many years ago. And at the time it was huge, it was so big, and it was called Red Earth. And it started off in the 80s and me and my best friend Russell Big Horse, we were excited to go and everything. But when we were there, we didn't necessarily feel welcome. We didn't necessarily feel welcome there, like afterwards going clubbing or something like that, then yeah we were very welcome. But we just weren't a welcome sight at the powwow.

And so when the Two-Spirit Powwow began, that was our main thing was it has to be welcoming for all people. We have to make sure that people feel this. And I feel the same way about the term Two-Spirit and when it came about and everything. A lot of that had to do with going back and nourishing your spirit, nourishing your soul in some way. Because I think a lot of times when Indigenous people leave their Indigenous communities and come into an urban setting, they feel a little… not just lonely, but also separated from their ways and their culture. And that also is a separation from your family as well, especially if your family is a very traditional family.

And so this was a way to give back to the community. And we didn't just give it back to the queer community. We invited everyone, everyone, everyone to come. So, they did. They just showed up. Some came and some people came that had LGBT relatives or Two-Spirit relatives and they wanted to show that they were there to support and everything else. So, from the very beginning, it was a welcoming space. And that's how I feel every time I see it. I feel like we've created something that is so welcoming that other organizations want to emulate it and bring their people back into that circle that many of them may have already left and not really wanted to come back because of how it felt once upon a time. And we're changing that. And even here in the Bay Area, sometimes at pow-wows you'll go and you'll see them carrying in like a rainbow flag.

That didn't actually happen before. And then you go and you look at Gathering Our Nations, which is the largest powwow in the nation. And now it has a Two-Spirit contingent. And they have these things because they recognize that Two-Spirit people are still in that circle. We are still dancing with you. It may have seemed like we left, but we haven't. We've always been there. So, I think that's very important. So, I'm very proud of the work that BAAITS has done in creating the powwow. And I have to say it touches my heart every time that we have our grand entry. And I see so many people come out. And in the very first one, I remember someone telling me that when we brought in that rainbow flag at the very beginning, when it first entered into the arena, that she just cried. She just cried.

Roger: In Muscogee, we have a term, Vnokeckv, which when you translate that to English, it means love. But it doesn't mean like I love you. It means community love. And one of my decolonial acts is trying to learn as much of my language as I possibly can. And that's one of the words I learned. And I remember being at Grand Entry a couple of years ago, probably like five or six years ago at this point. And at Fort Mason, where we hold our powwow currently, there's this really cool loft that you can walk up and see. You're always in Grand Entry. I've a few times have been able to watch it from above. It's such an amazing sight just to see all the people in that space. And at one moment, I remember filling with joy and just those tears of joy coming out. And I went, Vnokeckv, this is what I have been trying to understand, Vnokeckv. This is a community love right here. And I ended up doing my entire Ph.D. on the subject of Two-Spirit Love, which was inspired directly from what I saw at the BAAITS Powwow.

And also what I, you know, in general, what I've experienced with Two-Spirit community as a whole, that idea of like welcoming. Landa and I were also together over the summer in Montana at the Montana Two-Spirit Gathering. And what was not said in your bio was your new title that you, I mean, really were gifted in a lot of ways, rightfully so, which is now Miss Montana Two-Spirit. If you could share a little bit about - because I actually don't know myself, like what does it entail? What does it entail to be Miss Montana Two-Spirit?

Landa: Well, Miss Montana Two-Spirit is a powwow title. So that means that I go out and I represent the Montana Two-Spirit society at different powwows and different Indigenous functions. And sometimes that's spilled over into other functions, sometimes queer, sometimes not. So, it's been very cool and everything.

You see, I didn't run for the title. In Montana, I'm usually their emcee for their talent show night. And a part of that is usually the Montana contest. And it's just that their committee met together, and they decided to crown me as Miss Montana. So, when we went to the powwow, I was sitting there, and they called me up and crowned me as Miss Montana. And at the time I had bangs on and I knew that it wouldn't look so well with the crown. --Roger laughs** So I just snapped them off and put them on the former Miss Montana. -- Both laugh -- And so we exchanged bangs, and I took her crown.

-- Both laugh --

Roger: That was a really fun moment. And the entire room was just lit up with excitement when you were named as Miss Montana. And no doubt you will represent the Montana Two-Spirit community and that powwow with love and grace, as I know you do with everything that you have. And I'm remembering that night now. That was so fun. Because you and I work a lot during the powwow, the Bates powwow, I rarely get to dance because I'm always running around and I danced so much at the Montana powwow this year. It was so much fun. I even danced outside. I just kept going. The drum was still going as I just kept going. It was so beautiful, so nice.

I was thinking about when I saw you earlier in the week, I remember asking - that I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Two-Spirit elders. And in our community, we have lost some dear elders as of recently. And I remember I had that conversation with you a couple days ago where like, well, gosh, are we almost elders? I mean, are we kind of in that cusp of what that means?

And you said something to me that I found kind of profound about your experience as a native person who was raised traditionally and was raised with your culture and your language in a way that some of us were not. And I'm curious if you'd be willing to share a little bit about your understanding of what it means to be someone who's a culture keeper. Yeah, as someone that also youth look up to.

Landa: Sure. Well, you know, it's funny, but when I came out to San Francisco, back at the very end of the 80s, when I came out here, I had lived most of my life in Oklahoma. So, most of my life from the time I was born until I grew up, I grew up in Oklahoma. I represented my tribe in various ways and various capacities, even representing them while going on trips and speaking about my tribe and our tribal ways. And so, when I came to California, you know, there's sort of this thing that you expect out of elders of giving advice and advising you and telling you what's traditional and what's not. You know, I feel like I've been doing that since I got to California.

Even in my youth when I got here because there's so many people that came here through the Indian Relocation Act. --Roger: Mhmm Mhmm** Myers, who was head of the BIA, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, created this thing called the Indian Relocation Act. So, we have like a lot of descendants of indigenous people that are out here in these urban areas that are not necessarily connected to their tribe of what I think of back home. So, there are people that are within my tribe and similar tribes, Southeastern tribes that are very similar to me. And I've been able to, you know, tell them, oh, well, this is what we do, and this is what it means. It's very important that you don't just do it, but you also understand what it means.

And one of the things that I've always done, even though I was never told to, it was just something that my grandpa, he used to wake up every morning. You know, when the roosters started calling, he'd wake up and he'd sing his prayers. So as a consequence, I have kept that to myself too, of doing prayers every morning. And what that actually has done for me is it's helped me to retain more of the Chickasaw language than you would think. I've been away from the Chickasaw Nation for so long, but through prayers, I still have that fluency because in a way I left, but I never really left either because I have these prayers every morning that sort of like, you know, you have to search for words sometimes when you're praying in Chickasaw. And so, yeah, I've been able to maintain some of my culture.

So, I sometimes say that, you know, I left Oklahoma, but, you know, just because I left Oklahoma didn't cease the Chickasaw within me. My Chickasawness remained and it stayed there. --Roger: Mmmm.** So, I'm still connected. I go back to Oklahoma all the time. I'm still connected. And I think our ways are very important. And so, I try to keep them as much as I can.

It's not always easy when you're up in an urban city and things are different. You know, like for instance, you know, our tribes, the Southeastern tribes, we're not really what you would consider powwow tribes. But a lot of Chickasaw people do take part in powwows and being in urban area, you're more likely to go to a powwow than you're ever going to be at a stomp dance because no stomp dances out here. So, if I wanted to go to a stomp dance, which is sort of the religious practice that we as Southeastern tribes do, I have to go back to Oklahoma. And I didn't really have a choice unless somebody comes out here and does an exhibition. You know, they'll do an exhibition and that's not quite the same. It's not quite the same. An exhibition stomp dance is not the same as a stomp dance. You know, there's no prep. You just jump up and you dance. But when you go to Oklahoma, there's steps. There's different things that you do.

And so, I think it's very important that I as a person inform my relatives, especially the Southeastern people, what I think that they need to know. Or what they want to know more than need to know, because need is a big word. What they want to know. They want to know, then I'll tell them, and I'll help them with it. And sometimes even if they don't really want to know, I'll just share it anyway. It's one of the things that I really enjoy about some of our gatherings is being able to share the food that we have as well because our food is sometimes also considered medicine in many ways too. So, it's not just about like having a great flavor, but it's also the medicine that you're presenting for your community as well.

Roger: Yeah. I was thinking about the gathering again this summer and there was a group of young Two-Spirit identified people that you had sort of had a little bit of to do with them getting there. It was Morgan, your nibling that was from Oklahoma, I think that came. And I just so appreciated that you are actively building community for young people in this way. I see it. And I'm just wondering about like, how is it for you to be Auntie Landon now? Just too many of us.

Now you've, I asked Auntie Steven this last time that I did a panel… I was just curious about like, now young folks are calling you Auntie. What's that like for you?

Landa: Well, first off, I would like to say that I think that my relatives should stop having so many…-- Both laugh -- Because these are my blood relations. These are my actual relations. But I will say that I feel good in many ways because, you know, in some ways they could easily say that I was the first to come out. And so, it's made it easier for them. So, when they came out, they're telling their parents… they thought their parents were going to be mortified and destroyed and everything else. But instead, they were like, well, there's Miko. So, you know, I already sort of set like a good path for them. And it makes me proud. It makes me proud that they've had an easier time. I can't say that it was a perfect time because, you know, no one ever has like a perfect coming out story, really. It's just something that happens. And so, they've had a difficult road, but at least it's been easier and smoother because I was there before them. And how it feels to be an auntie, I feel like I have no choice.

-- Both laugh --

Roger: You have no choice. Well, okay.

--Both laughing**

Landa: Like eventually, once you reach your 50s, you're just sort of like, well, I'm an auntie to everybody now.

Roger: There you go. There you go.

Landa: Well, I think, I think primarily in the gay community, once you hit, like, what was that magic age once upon a time? “Looking for everybody up to the age of 27.”

Roger: Oh yeah. Many moons ago. -- Both laugh --

Landa: Everybody wanted somebody 27 or 29, you know, they had to stay within like the younger things, and nobody wanted people who were in their 30s. But yeah, once you move past all that, you just naturally accept that you're going to be an auntie to someone. So, my only advice to people as you get older is to keep stock in how crazy you were when you were younger. --Roger: Hmmm.** Because that'll keep you from being too judgmental --Roger: Yeah** of the young people that are up and coming.

Roger: Yeah. Earlier tonight, you mentioned ICWA and MMIW, which are two issues that are impacting the entirety of what we call Indian country, but Native people across the US, which does, of course, impact Two-Spirit Folk. I'm curious if there are specific issues or additional issues that you think also impact our community that you may want to use your opportunity now to share with folks to bring to their attention.

Landa: Other items, other political items?

Roger: Could be political items, could be, you know, like, hey, February 4th, we've got this great big pow-wow coming up. Really anything that you might want to share that you think is, you know, folks that might be interested in learning more about Two-Spirit folks or Two-Spirit things that might be going on across Turtle Island.

Landa: Well, sure. If you're interested, November 25th, we're going to have an all-Indigenous show at SF OASIS in San Francisco. You can go online and find our Eventbrite, and everything for that. But it's called Indigenous Brilliance because we want it to be bright and lovely. And we ask the question, what does it mean to decolonize drag when inherently drag is a Western concept? So, what does it mean? So, we're going to find out what the performers say about that.

Another thing I would say, just to go back a little bit to ICWA, is just the importance that people… think about it in terms that it is about sovereignty more so than anything else. It's not a racial distinction. It's about our sovereignty as a nation to be able to control where our children go. And I think that's a very important distinction to make. Once you start breaking down all these pieces of sovereignty because we have lost a few things in the past specifically with sovereignty and that's a very important issue for us. We want to continue to be a sovereign nation. We should be a quarter of the same rights as any state as well.

Roger: That's right. I always think it's interesting. As far as I understand correctly, Indigenous peoples in Canada can travel on their cards, their identity cards. Whereas in the US, it certainly doesn't work like that for us. If I were to roll up into say some place that wants to see my ID and I pull out my tribal ID card, most places are not going to know what that is or recognize that as an actual document that we could use to identify ourselves in that way. So, we’re forced to conform to those colonial ideologies of passports and driver license and those things.

Landa: Do you know what's really funny about that is that you cannot use your tribal membership card. However, you could use your CDIB because it's issued Federally. Whereas your tribal ID is issued specifically by your tribe. But because the CDIB is issued from the Bureau of Indian Affairs… --Roger: OK, Interesting.** Then you can use it except for the fact that it has no picture attached to it. --Roger laughs** So if that's the ID document that you're going to use, has to have a picture on it, then forget about it. So, it doesn't even work that way. But I think it's really cool that Canada affords a lot of different things. A lot of that has to do with their treaties, whereas our treaties were not quite as encompassing on that. I wish it were, but unfortunately, it's not.

Roger: CDIB card for folks that don't know, Certified Degree of Indian Blood is what that stands for and that is the BIA, Bureau of Indian Affairs’ way of continuing to track and monitor Indigenous people to this day. So yeah, that's what that stands for.

Over our time at various gatherings, a lot of these gatherings that happen up in the Montana area are international gatherings. So, folks from what we now call Canada will oftentimes come down. We met a great group of Canadians this summer and I've been following their adventures on social media, and I keep thinking, wow, y'all get together a lot. It seems like y'all have a lot of gatherings. That's so nice. We need to do more of that on this side of that imposed border, which we do have a BAAITS pow-wow coming up on February 4th. I want to stress that to everyone. That is going to be held in San Francisco, February 4th, which is a Saturday, at Fort Mason Center, which is, I don't know, can't remember the exact address top of my head right now, but it's down by the Marina. It's an amazing location. It's a free event. Everybody is welcome. If you can make a donation, wonderful. That's great too.

But we will have tons of vendors and it's our first in-person - public in-person event really since the pandemic for the Bay Area American Indian Two-Spirit organization and I have no doubt we're going to have an amazing event and we will also have some virtual programming leading up to the powwow, which…the past couple of years we've been doing that the drag night that you have hosted has always been a huge hit and I don't want to put you on the spot. I should have asked you this in the powwow committee meeting, though I was hoping that there may still be another drag performance that's part of either the virtual programming or something the week of the powwow. Any plans for that?

Landa: Yeah, we're thinking about bringing that into the night before.

Roger: Wonderful.

Landa: So, it'll be live slash virtual.

Roger: Oh, a little bit of both.

Landa: It'll be a little bit of both, but hopefully as we plan this out and everything, it'll all take place at our big get together. You know, years ago I wanted to call our get together a gala, but people were a little too gay. And so now we call it the pre-powwow social because it sounds so much so entertaining.

Roger: That's a nice flow to it that that one does. I do love that. I do want to just ask you though a bit about…well, really two questions. The first is, do you have any words of encouragement or advice that you might offer Two-Spirit youth that may be listening right now, or maybe their friend will share this with them who might see you and say, wow, I can be big and beautiful and bold when I get older as well. And maybe see someone like myself and see themselves represented in a different way. But really the res kid or the kid that is in the urban environment that maybe doesn't have access like you and I do, anything that you'd like to share with them tonight?

Landa: You know, that's really hard to speak on nowadays because we live in a completely different world than we used to. So, a lot of times you'll see a lot of like Two-Spirit res kids on TikTok doing makeup and make up transformations and everything else. So, I don't know if there's a lot out there anymore that really feel as closeted as say when we were growing up.

It's a different world. So, at this point, I would probably say that for all you young people who are out there who are still closeted, remember two things. Everybody has their own timeline.

There's no pressure for you to come out, especially if coming out actually does mean that you might end up being homeless. Because a lot of people may not realize this, but there are a lot of Christian households out there in the Indigenous community. A lot of people think of Native people as being like these traditional ways sort of people. But when you look at say for my tribe, my tribe, we're about 90% Christian.

Roger: Same, mine too.

Landa: 90%. That's a lot. We had a lot of missionaries throughout the southeastern tribes. So, there's a lot of Christianity out there. So, for those kids, all I can say is like, I'm sorry, but at the same time, you have to come out at your own time. So don't feel like people have to push you into coming out.

And for those kids who may not be in that same situation, just remember to be proud of yourself. Pride is such an important thing. We spend so much of our lives feeling like we might embarrass other people, and it's hard for us to be ourselves. And so that would be my advice. Remember to have pride within yourself. And pride isn’t vanity. Pride is just being able to speak the truth and be comfortable with who you are.

Roger: Beautiful. I appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that. So, my final question to you is, it is Native American Heritage Month. We get one month. I think we get a… do we get something else? I can't remember if we get any other months or times or places, et cetera.

Landa: We get a special day, actually.

Roger: Oh, that's right. The day, that one day. Thank you. And for Two-Spirit Folk, oftentimes that day, Indigenous Peoples' Day, falls also on National Coming Out Day.

Landa: Wow.

Roger: It's close.

Landa: Indigenous Peoples' Day is in October, but this month, for the month of November, we have National Native Heritage Day, which is the day right after Thanksgiving.

Roger: That's right. Right. Okay.

Landa: And it's the day that we're going to have our drag show.

Roger: Wonderful. Was that purposeful, that it's just sort of natural?

Landa: Yeah. It was very purposeful. It was interesting because the management at OASIS actually reached out and said that - I guess they had already had something planned, but then that had fallen through. And so, they offered it to us, the Indigenous community.

Roger: Wonderful.

Landa: And so, I said yes. And so-

Roger: Well, it’s nice when it works out that way.

Landa: That's how that developed. And so, I'm very appreciative of OASIS to reach out like that and to be able to do more than just say, we recognize that this is Indian land, but to actually do something for us as well is pretty remarkable.

Roger: And props to CIIS Public Programs as well for having myself and Landa here tonight, giving us this opportunity. So final question to you, Landa, given that this is Native American Heritage Month, what is it that you hope that our listening audience tonight maybe takes away from our time together tonight about Two-Spirit people?

Landa: The one thing that I would like people to take away is to remember that Two-Spirit people want to be a part of their own culture. They do not want to distance themselves from their culture. They want to be a part of their culture. And that's very important because I think that so many times Two-Spirit people are sort of pushed out. They're pushed out and then they end up in a big city and they just sort of disappear and become invisible in that big city.

Nobody knows what you are. Like when you as a Native person meet somebody, unless you have like really big full braids and so forth, they're probably not going to know what you are.

So, a majority of Indigenous people just sort of disappear in big cities. And so that's one of the things that I want people to know is that Two-Spirit people are visible. They're here and they want to be a part of their own culture. And that's really what we are hoping to do every time we go out is to remind people that we can be proud of our own culture.

Roger: Beautiful. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. Landa Lakes, it is always an honor and a true joy to be with you, always in this capacity, and always even more so when I see you just as a friend. So thank you so much for all that you shared with us this evening. Congratulations on all of your successes recently. And is there any final thoughts that you would like to share to our listening audience today?

Landa: My final thought is this. If you really feel strongly for the Two-Spirit community, if you're Indigenous, make sure to have a welcoming space for Two-Spirit people. If you're non-Indigenous, then make a welcoming space for Indigenous people as a whole. And remember that we're not all gone. We're not invisible. We're there. And sometimes it might take a little more for you to find out who we are more than anything else. So just make a welcoming space.

Roger: Thank you, Landa Lakes. And thank you to the California Institute of Integral Studies for having Landa and I here this evening. It has been a joy and an honor. Mvto, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Nikki Roda. CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.