John J. Prendergast: On Opening Your Deepest Ground

Our transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human editors. We do our best to achieve accuracy, but they may contain errors. If it is an option for you, we strongly encourage you to listen to the podcast audio, which includes additional emotion and emphasis not conveyed through transcription.

Sara Max Granovetter: John, it's such an honor to be here with you and to get to talk about this really rich and fertile work that you've put forth in the world. I've been sitting with the phrase, Your Deepest Ground, and it strikes me as kind of both an invitation and a reminder. And I guess that for those of us in the CIIS community, I'm wondering if you can say a little bit about the way this inquiry builds a bridge between kind of inner inquiry and outer presence, as well as between integrating psychological material and being and sitting with a deeper mystery. And in particular, I'd love for you to say a little bit to start us off about what you mean by Your Deepest Ground. Seems like that's.

John Prendergast: A good start.

Sara: A good start, right? And we can kind of go from there and maybe at risk of adding too many elements to the question, how was this book born from that place?

John: Hmm. Lots of questions.

Sara: Lots of questions. So I'm happy to come back if that’s too many.

John: Maybe definitions first and then you can help prompt me with the other questions. Well, when we think of the word ground, usually our attention drops down, doesn't it? And it kind of refers to some sense of stability and something about being in the body and connected to the earth and connected to reality as well. So I use the word in two ways. One is a metaphor for a felt sense of being deeply connected with our bodies and particularly the lower half of our body, which is so often in contemplative traditions with some notable exceptions, undervalued or even devalued. So felt sense, subtle sense of our body, not just our physicality, which is important because I used to think I was pretty grounded, but little did I know what the capacity of the body was. And what's interesting is as we become more intimate with our body and the felt sense of our body, our feelings, our sensations, subtle feelings, subtle sensations, we feel ourselves landing more and more deeply and more and more intimately into an interiority. But interestingly, and this has been fascinating, my work, both in terms of my own exploration, but my work with others, as we deepen into the body, it opens up. It's not as separative as we imagine. In fact, it takes us out of our separation, our separation from all elements of our experience, our separation from one another. As there's more intimacy here, there's more intimacy here, intra-interpersonal, and more intimacy with what we call the world and the natural world. Body is an earth body. And as we become more intimate with our earth bodies, we feel greater intimacy with the earth and with the planet and all living beings as well. And so the felt sense reveals the body to be not just this kind of condensed object of anatomy and physiology. It has that quality, certainly. But as we begin to tend and listen more and more carefully, subtler dimensions, energetic dimensions of feeling and sensation unfold, and we discover it more as a field of vibration, more a sense of space internally. And so this is one of the kind of paradoxes, if you will, in terms of language, not in terms of experience, is as we really land more and more fully in our body and into our deep interiority, it opens up and is more spacious. And so now we're using words like ground and space simultaneously because they fit. Right. So that's the kind of metaphoric sense of the ground and particularly the lower half of the body because in my experience, my own experience in contemplative traditions, a lot of attention is given to mental clarity and differentiating attention from thought. And that's important. And there's a lot of mindfulness teachings and not just formal mindfulness, but in different contemplative traditions accent that. And others also include the heart and the cultivation of compassion and kindness and gratitude, all of which are important. Not so many below the midline. And so a lot of people are interested in spiritual life tend to be more mature here and more familiar with the open and spacious nature of the heart and the mind, much less so with the lower part of the body. And so for me, it's been a natural unfolding of exploration as these areas have kind of opened up here. And I've noticed that in my work with people as well, one on one work and group work, the more difficult journey really is the dropping of attention down and into the guts, into the belly, into the pelvic bowl. Because this is an area of it's more instinctual. It's more it's more dense. There's a lot more resistance. And this is really the theme of the book. Now, it's like I've been very interested in the process of letting go. Like, what is the what is it that supports letting go? Because that seems to me the essence of really any spiritual approach is a deep surrender and letting go that can't be done willfully. So what supports that letting go and what obstructs it? What supports it? What obstructs it? And in that investigation, I have found doubt. Doubt obstructs it. Shame obstructs it. And above all, the fear of annihilation obstructs the process because it's a deep letting go of our ordinary way of thinking and feeling and sensing ourself in the world, all of which are tend to be oriented strategically to stay in control and to maintain our image and the safety of our body, understandably. You know, we're oriented around safety. And so the the invitation and the possibility of letting go is in a certain way in opposition to that tendency to remain contracted, vigilant, in control and maintaining safety. And so this is why this descent of awareness is so important because it needs to descend in order for it to really radiate out in our ordinary life and not just be, you know, felt occasionally on retreat or on the Zafu. Did that respond to your question?

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. I guess maybe just a follow up question, and there's many themes that I want to come back to that you just touched upon, would be what within you kind of incited or inspired you to write this book now?

John: It's been a very organic unfolding. I actually didn't start writing the first anthology, really, until I was 50. And it wasn't until my mid 60s that the first book came. And so there's been a lot of, I think, personal gestation and maturity. And I didn't know if I had anything really to say that was important enough to write a book about. So I waited and waited and waited. And then things began to emerge. You know, the felt sense of inner knowing that was the first book in touch. And then really opening up. So just to frame this kind of writing project as it's risen. In my first book, In Touch, it's really about the sense of inner knowing and certain subtle somatic markers that accompany the felt sense and opening of authenticity. And one of them is an opening of space and others an opening of the heart. And another is a sense of alignment and grounding. And so the second book was really about the heart. And a lot of books have been written about the heart, but kind of the different levels, psychological and more subtle, soulful and universal, hadn't been, in my experience, sufficiently articulated, particularly in terms of conditioning. And I had thought I would write a book about the heart and the ground because they're so intimately related. For us to live from the heart, really, that is to say, not in a naive or romantic sense, but really from the depths of our being, and with this spontaneous quality of kindness and non-separateness, to really sustain that, we need a sense of profound safety. And that's where the ground comes in. So we can maybe share our heart with a few people, but that kind of deeper opening, generalized opening of the heart, actually requires that deepening and opening of the ground. So I thought maybe the two would go together as a book. And yet, they came out as two. And it's been interesting because it hasn't felt like a personal project. It's more like, okay, this material has been deeply understood. It's of value to others when I share it in teaching. So it would be useful to write about. And so it just feels like it's kind of emerged out of my own experience personally, in terms of this process of awareness dropping more and more deeply into the body, and then radiating out and being of benefit to others. So I alluded to this a little bit earlier, this kind of process of feeling like the mind opening and the heart opening. Those happen more easily and quickly. The guts? This has been a much slower process. And I've had to navigate a lot more unconscious material instinct and fear. And it's just taken more time. So anyway, it's a kind of offering based on that. And as I wrote in the book at the end of my introduction, it feels like a final offering, really. I don't feel like I, I mean, I'll continue teaching as long as I can. But in terms of writing, I don't think there's anything else significant enough, you know, from my experience to share.

Sara: Thank you. Yeah, I'm appreciating that sense of inner knowing with which you've approached writing these books. And the word emerged, you know, as though this material itself wanted to emerge through you.

John: It feels that way. Yeah. I think that emergent quality. And when I was doing the there's an audiobook version of this, Your Deepest Ground. And when I was down in a studio in Southern California a few months ago, completing it and just there was a very, very interesting, very quiet sense of inner completion. Like, you know, like there was something I needed to do and it's been done. And it was it wasn't an egoic pat on the back. It was much quieter than that. Like something, you know, some gift was shared and it was meant to be shared. And, you know, that's.

Sara: Yeah. And that kind of subtle attunement, that kind of knowing, it sounds like has come from the work you've done to cultivate that inner felt sense. Is that right?

John: Very much so. Learning to learning to listen, really learning to get quiet, learning to distinguish the noise of our ordinary thinking mind from from a really a different way of knowing. And these all book all of these books kind of are in support of that learning to listen in a deep way and making ourselves available to what's a very quiet, very intuitive, very deep intelligence that's available in all of us. And I think as we deepen into the heart and as the ground opens, the whole system gets quieter and deeper. And we open, we open more and more to an essential life, to what feels like an upwelling and an essential life current that's not personal. And this is this is interesting that there is a it feels like a universal quality of life that moves through all of us and everything and animates, you know, all of life. And, and yet, it's not personal doesn't belong to anyone or refer to anyone and yet it's profoundly intimate. And, and I can feel it as I speak. It's, it's shared. And there's a there's a sense of aliveness that comes with this so in the emptying out and so much of the opening of the ground is letting go of all the thoughts and feelings we have about who we are. And as there is that kind of emptying out process, which the mind is like emptiness I don't want emptiness, you know, I want to, I want stimulation, but it's very interesting as there is a recognition that this emptiness is actually quite fertile, pregnant, full of possibility full of potentiality, full of life, then, then there's a mature recognition that this deep letting go into, I would say, true nature to use, you know, Buddhist term, I like this term true nature invites a very natural upwelling of life.

Sara: That's beautiful. Thank you. You know, I think as you're speaking, this theme of paradox, this sort of fertile sacred paradox that feels like is at the heart of your, this term, the, your deepest ground in a way, right, because I wonder if we could come back to that a little bit because, you know, as you mentioned earlier when we think of ground we usually think of something solid, right, something firm, something that maybe will support us or hold us. And it seems like in this book, you're referring to your deepest ground as a sense of spaciousness, as you said, a sense of emptiness. And so, in what sense can we, in what sense can we consider that a ground and in what sense does that support and hold us in the way we might hope a ground, solid ground does?

John: Yeah, this is the essence of paradox, right, because, because various words have been used to point to this, groundless ground, right, okay, groundless ground, what does that mean, you know, or radiant void, you know, is another one, empty fullness and so on. So in what sense can we think of this as the ground? Well, that's the other meaning of the word ground, I think, which is a sense of reality. And this is not a reality that could be, I would say, objectively verified, but it's subjectively recognized. In other words, as there is a letting go more and more deeply, a release process, as we see through illusion and there's a natural letting go and we find ourselves more and more empty, there's a sense of being more at ease. It can be disorienting if we're tightly contracted and we're letting go of that, no question about it, that's why there is resistance. But when there's a real relaxation that happens, there's a sense of a deep settling, like a deep, the words are so, you know, the language so paradoxical, good, it's a good conversation. It's like we land here. Here is so open, like here is wide open. So it's not the little here of, you know, present sensory experience. It includes that, but not limited to that. That's sort of beginning mindfulness, you know, what am I thinking and feeling in the breath and so on. It's the capital H-E-R-E here. So there's a sense of ease and a sense of deep, deeply being at rest. And that there's nothing else to attain or seek or change in a profound sense that all is well, no matter what. And that presents another apparent paradox because, you know, the world's on fire and democracy is under assault and authoritarian, you know, leaders and governments are ascendant and society is fragmenting and polarizing. And so how can you say all is well, no matter what? And does that mean you're passive? No, it doesn't. It means there's a foundational sense of ease and well-being from which one can then act and respond in a much more creative way than would otherwise be available. There's a quality of clarity and love that's more available to move and meet circumstances as they are. So there's a sense, another way to speak about this is we feel seated in our inner authority. It's not like we claim a seat, but it's more that we find our seat, a seat that's always here, a seat of really quiet inner knowing and a seat of inner authority that's not an authority over anyone. It's not about higher or lower. It's not about domination or submission. It's just a deep resting in a quiet knowing of oneself, not necessarily a knowing about what's going to happen or a technical knowing that requires other kinds of investigation and effort, but a knowing of our being or of our essence. So it becomes impossible to describe in words, and that's why we use metaphor and that's why we use paradox. And we understand that all of these metaphors and paradoxical phrases, groundless ground, radiant void, dynamic stillness, emptiness dancing, you know, you'll see this in many contemplative traditions among the most mature, mature realizers. They find this kind of language to try to describe and point to something that cannot be contained by language that's both empty and full, both dark and radiant, both silent and expressive as well.

Sara: Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like they really operate as a koan in a way, something that the rational mind can't necessarily grasp and that's a good thing, right?

John: That is a good thing.

Sara: Tours around it.

John: That's such an important phase, actually, as we know, and often accented in contemplative traditions, which is the limits of the rational mind. Rational mind is an incredible tool, a beautiful tool, important. Mental clarity and acuity is a wonderful thing. And it has its limits. And we get into terrible trouble individually and collectively, you know, when we don't recognize that, when we think a purely rational and scientific approach is sufficient. I think, you know, it's important, but it's not sufficient. It requires a deeper intelligence. And so when we recognize both the beauty and importance of the mind, but also its limitation, and it's like, oh, I don't know. I don't know who I really am. I have lots of ideas. I got lots of stories. You know, I can roll out my narratives about, you know, what I've done and where I come from and my various identities, all of which have relative truth. None of which actually define us and therefore confine us. So there's a kind of natural humility that arises, like, I don't know. And this is not something that I can grasp. I can't know this. It's not that I'm ignorant. It's not that I'm a failure as a knower. But this is actually beyond the capacity of my analytic, ordinary thought, beautiful and powerful as it is. There is something greater, a greater mystery here that is alive in me, in you, in everyone that I don't know, I can't know. And as I often say, I don't need to know. I don't need to know. That was a very important insight for me. It's like that kind of sort of releasing of the mind's agenda to control and opening in a very visceral and deep way to the mystery of life. And then we're open. And we're like available. And this is what koan practice hopes to engender, isn't it? It's like you baffle the mind and the mind chews on something and then it just collapses and, you know, something opens. So same process, isn't it?

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the mind kind of collapses in exhaustion in a way. It kind of uses up its ordinary pathways of understanding. And I'm just appreciating the way you're describing not knowing as a state of openness. That's some way, seems like the entryway into this inquiry is that state of openness. And in that openness, there's space for something else to come and meet us.

John: Exactly. That's exactly it. And so not knowing, this kind of not knowing is not ignorance, you know, but it's a recognition of our limitation and a natural humility and an openness. And then the whole system begins to open, right? We get out of the tyranny of the shoulds, that is to say how we think we should be experiencing. And we get very interested in what am I actually experiencing? That question of should tends to fall away, you know, and it's like what am I experiencing right now? And that can take us so deeply, you know, if we follow that. And if we really want to follow that, this is another interesting aspect of this process is what I would call the love of truth, not truth as a dogma or a point of view or ideology, but the truth of our being or of our essence. There's something in us yearns to know that it's more or less alive in different people. Sometimes we have to hit bottom, you know, and really have a difficult experience of, you know, our limited way of living before we crack open. And other times we're drawn by like, I just know there's more here to life. And I want to explore this. I really want to know, you know, what am I really and what is this? Conventionally we call the world and society and others. Is it as I ordinarily think or actually is there a subtler and deeper and truer way of living and perceiving?

Sara: Yes, yes. It reminds me of the Zen koan, not knowing is most intimate, it seems like, right? That not knowing allows us to be intimate with our experience as it is with the world, right? And sort of breaking us out of the kind of encapsulated illusion of the separate self.

John: Exactly. Not knowing is most intimate. I love that. You know, I've heard that before. And, you know, the intimacy with 10,000 things, which, you know, is prior to Dogen, but it comes from the Chan masters too. It means with everything. And I have to say, I mean, this is something that I was clueless about many years ago as a young meditator. You know, I had mixed motives. I think one, I was interested in what I considered to be higher states of consciousness. But I also just wanted to be more relaxed socially, you know, because I was kind of an anxious guy, you know. And I wanted to be more at ease in connecting with other people, and that actually requires some psychological work as well. So there was a mixed motive. There was more egoic motive to be at ease. But I can, looking back, I can see there was that thread of really following something that was, in a way, calling. And it calls many of us on this path.

Sara: Yes. Yeah. Thank you. I might shift gears a little bit here and just maybe we could talk a little bit. You know, we've talked about the deepest ground, and I'd love to kind of hear more about and maybe discuss more the felt and lived sense of the deepest ground. But you also talked about something called the false ground. And the false ground is something that we need to see and feel through, right, in order to open to the deepest ground. Could you say a little more about the false ground?

John: Yeah, absolutely. This is a really critically important principle in exploration. I would say the false ground, and this was something that this concept emerged. I'm sure others have named it and perhaps pointed to it because it's such a human experience. But it emerged very spontaneously in my work with people. What I began to see, and this was kind of surprising to me at first, was that we have our ordinary identity. We have a psychological image, story we try to maintain of ourselves. That's part of our false ground. And then also developmentally and quite naturally for everyone, we identify with this particular body mind. And we say, this is me, I'm in here, this is mine, that's you, and you're over there, and you're different. Which is true on a certain level. There's differentiation and individuation, and it's not the whole truth, right, because it's something we share in common ground, common heart. So in this process of identifying with our psychological material and our individuation process, we construct a false ground. And it has a cognitive dimension in terms of our story, our narrative about ourselves, consciously and subconsciously, and even unconsciously about who I think I am. There's an emotional aspect to it, our feelings, and there's a somatic aspect to it. And this I've given particular attention to. For whatever reason, I happen to be very sensitive, energetically, and I can kind of feel when people clench, when they clench and where they clench. And we tend to clench along the midline. And also in the heart, in the gut, solar plexus, lower belly, base of the spine, corresponds pretty well with the Indian subtle body tradition, I found, but other subtle body traditions as well. So in our adaptation as individuals to life, after facing difficult situations and shocks, we tend to pull in and freeze. We know this is true in trauma. There is that freeze response, and we can even dissociate if it's too strong. But there's a kind of somatic contraction that happens as an individual. There are layers to this. Some are conscious, some are largely unconscious. And we identify with that. And the image that I use to talk about that is just of a closed fist. Like we take ourselves as this, as a contracted individual. And as we begin to discover that that's not the case, this begins to feel threatened. Like, well, I thought I was this. And if I'm not this, then I won't exist. So that's the false ground. Because there's a conflation. There's a belief that if this releases, I won't exist. I'll die. Either my self-image will be gone, and I, the self-image, won't exist. A little bit of truth to that. Certainly we're not attached to our stories in the way we were before in our image. But we also conflate our image with our physicality. And we think if my image is lost, then my body will die. We don't cognitively make that connection, but kind of in a deep, instinctual sense we do. And so this is what I'm referring to as a false self. And it's not about, what's interesting I have found in my work with people, it's enough to see the false as false. It's enough to see an illusion as illusion. It's enough to see what's untrue. And when that's seen with real clarity, there's a release that happens. It's like something pops. Sometimes it pops, sometimes it just melts. There's more of a, you know, that kind of frozenness begins to thaw and melt. And I'm sure, you know, you've probably experienced, I've experienced it, when there's an unwinding of some psychological material or the sense of being a separate self. I have found in terms of the false ground, you know, it tends to localize along the midline, as I said, in the trunk, in the heart, in the guts, but most importantly at the base of the spine. And this is in the Indian subtle body tradition, the root chakra. And this is real. It's not just some, you know, abstract system. And quite palpable, certainly for me and for others who have some sensitivity. It's a contraction in the pelvic bowl at the base of the spine. And it has to do with trying to survive. And so psychological elements that threaten it are early years of abandonment, engulfment, attack. And this can go very deeply. You know, if we've had that kind of, you know, tumultuous or not only tumultuous, but disconnected experience growing up, that leaves a deep imprint in the psyche, you know. And we play it out in the rest of our lives. We know this as individuals and as therapists who work with individuals, that these imprints are very deep and powerful. So we act on the basis of that false ground. And as it unwinds, we discover what's there always, what is here. I speak of there as if it's somewhere else. It's nowhere else. It's here. It's always here. You know, it's like, well, what's in the center of this space? This has been such an interesting discovery in my work with people. It's like, so they feel a knot of contraction. The invitation is, don't try to change it. Don't try to get rid of it. What if you just welcome it into a sense of open, spacious awareness and notice what happens as you do? It's like, very often, not always, because there often can be a corresponding belief that keeps it, you know, tightly held. Very often there's a natural kind of softening and opening, and a discovery right in the center of that icy contraction. It's just openness. There's light. There's space. It's like, oh, this is what I am, not this. And that's what we could call true ground or groundless ground, that kind of spacious, open, living awareness. That's in our very core, but veiled. So for me, it's an unveiling process. And generally, this is a bit of a sideline in terms of the conversation. It takes time for that to happen. We're so kind of acclimated to our false ground and identified with our false ground that it can be, if we're all released suddenly, and occasionally that happens, it can be very expansive, joyful, but also very disorienting. And that can happen with, you know, if you're using psychedelics too much or maybe have a premature Kundalini awakening, or you're monkeying around with energies and, you know, not really grounded and don't have good guidance, those kinds of openings can happen. But in my experience, this kind of this release, the seeing and seeing through, feeling and feeling through, sensing and sensing through of our false ground is a gradual process, and there are layers to it. And it's a very intuitive process. Like sometimes something will need to be addressed in the mind in terms of a belief that we've inherited from childhood, that I'm not enough, or something's wrong with me. There goes the hand, right? So we have a limited sense of self, and we pull in and protect ourselves. Or maybe it's, I'm unworthy, I'm unlovable, I'm unacceptable. This tends to be, you know, these kind of worthiness and shame issues tend to localize more in the heart and the gut. And maybe it's, I'm unsafe, and the world is dangerous, and I need to, you know, hide and disappear. Anyway, these, some attention will go to the heart and some to the ground and some to the mind. And then it's very interesting how attention will just like move in a very fluid, you know this, working with people in your own experience, in a very fluid way. And I trust this process. If there is enough safety and attunement, and this can be offered by a guide, a teacher, a coach, a therapist, you know, the name isn't so important. What is important is the presence, the attuned presence. And when we feel ourselves received in that quality of loving attention and attunement, this provides an optimal environment and aspects that were missing often when we were growing up and allows for that kind of gradual melting and movement of attention. So very often when I sit with people, we may just sit in silence and things will start moving. But maybe I'll start with the question, where is attention being called right now? We begin to learn to trust that movement of attention.

Sara: Yeah, I mean, I think that what's striking me is that often we are operating from our false ground, and yet it's very unconscious, right? Right, it's very habitual.

John: Largely.

Sara: Largely, right. We're so identified with it.

John: Individually and collectively, yes.

Sara: Individually and collectively, right. And so it seems like bringing, like that step of simply bringing awareness to these layers of conditioning and these layers of false ground is in and of itself transformative. And yet we need to approach it from a place of presence, is that right?

John: Very much so.

Sara: And I think that the way we relate to it is so important and who we delve into this journey with is also vital.

John: Yeah, how we do it ourselves and with whom we do it. And this has been very interesting because, you know, I'm retired as a therapist, but for many years, and I've trained therapists when I was teaching here, it took me a while to understand the difference between approaching experience from the mind that kind of wants to get somewhere and make something happen. And there's a kind of a therapeutic pressure when you're, you know, being paid and there's so much time and you want something to happen versus really presence, which is different than ordinary mind, which I would call awake, spacious awareness. And this is why when I'm working with people, before we actually dive into something in terms of bringing attention to it, I'll invite them to rest back. It's like just take a breath, let your attention drop down and in to your body. Wait a little bit. There's a sense of more here, more grounded. Rest back into a sense of open, spacious awareness. No effort. Just relax back. No work to do, nothing to attain or achieve. Just for a minute. And then in that openness, now welcome your experience without an agenda to fix or change it. Because mind's subtle, you know, it wants, you know, of course I'll accept it if it leaves, you know, if I can get rid of it, you know, you know that, we all know that. But spacious open awareness or presence doesn't have that agenda. It just wants to get to know the experience more, more intimately. So this, we could call it the highest form of mindfulness or just presence. You know, it's just welcoming experience. And for me, that creates an optimal environment for our experience to unfold. And it's like it's waiting to be met, that quality of awareness. And it has a quality of love. There's a tenderness there, a kindness, an affectionate curiosity that just naturally meets our experience and invites it to. Unfold in its own way and in its own time. Now, having said that, what I have noticed is the importance of cognition, too. Like if there is a contraction in the heart and say at the base of the spine and there's a welcoming of that and it remains fairly static and not moving. I'll say, is there a belief that goes with that? Usually a very simple one. One that a child might say in a few words. Yeah. And it might be, I'm going to die. If I let go or if I feel this or if I know this, I'll die. And we'll check and see, is that, is that, say it? Is that really it? There'll be a charge when there is. And then the invitation is a little bit different than just resting back and welcoming. It's more an invitation. What is your deepest knowing about this belief? That you'll die now. That now you'll die. Don't think about it. What is your deepest knowing? What's the truth now? That now is important because these beliefs were formed early on. And these parts that are still compartmentalized live in these worlds as if it's still true. You know? And so this is a very important inquiry, part of this seeing and seeing through. It's like, what's true now? That's like, what's, that's the, what's, you know, this is believed that it's unsafe and that you'll die. But what's your deepest knowing? Don't think about it. And this is where the light of awareness really starts to imbue the conditioned body-mind and where transformation happens. And people will say, I don't know what it is, but I just kind of know it's not true. You know? And I'll say, let it in. Let this in. Let this knowing in. And this is where kind of spirituality and psychology kind of marry. You know? They've never been separate, actually, but where they stop being, what, divorced artificially. And there's a meeting, you know, of the conditioned body-mind with our unconditioned, open, true nature. And in that, there's a natural unfolding and unwinding that goes at its own pace, I found.

Sara: You know, I think, I think that's so important what you're naming about being almost, I don't think the word meticulous is quite right, but really noticing the type of presence you're bringing to these conditioned, frozen experiences of the false ground. Because one of the exercises in your book is about being with terror. Right? And I found that very powerful and almost a kind of fierce path to sit with and be with terror. I think many therapists or, you know, those in the healing profession, when someone's experiencing terror, they might be trained to or kind of more comfortable inviting them to notice safety or resource. But you're really saying no, actually. You know, maybe that's just engendering a kind of false, you know, in some ways a false belief.

John: It can.

Sara: Right? But you're saying actually being with a terror.

John: If you're sufficiently resourced.

Sara: If you're resourced, yeah.

John: Otherwise, it's re-traumatizing, isn't it?

Sara: Right.

John: So, but it's true. And I think this is the interesting thing. So, our frame of understanding, whether we're being with our own experience or someone, we're being with someone else's experience, is very important. Right? It really has profound implications. And so, if this territory of emptiness, of false ground, feels threatening to us as a helper in whatever role we're in, we are going to both consciously and unconsciously avoid it and therefore support those we're helping to stay within their false self. And we may do more conventional resourcing to make the ego feel more at ease, the separate sense of self. But what's interesting is the terror itself is a portal. And this is what we begin to discover. Like, okay, so if I feel safe enough and resourced enough that I can welcome it a little bit, right? Not that I have to go somewhere and do something, accomplish anything, but just receive it a little bit, notice what happens. And as it begins to fall, unwind, and that can involve some shaking and crying sometimes if it needs to. It doesn't have to, but it does sometimes. It's a natural release process. And then it's like, oh, my goodness, this which I have avoided my whole life, and my hands are gesturing down here, this which I have been drugging myself and distracting myself for all my life is actually a kind of entryway to my depths. Our whole orientation changes. We realize this is essential to pay attention to. That takes some maturity and some courage, but really understanding of that. So if we're working with someone who does understand that, who has walked sufficiently, or fallen, I should say, rather than walked, like just dropped sufficiently or fallen open, then we will feel trust that this is actually an authentic opening, that this apparent death is really a birth, really a birthing. And I think that in letting go of what we thought we are, we're actually opening to something much more profound and true and authentic.

Sara: Yes, thank you. Now I think that I'm thinking about some of the clients I work with, and there's a theme among many of my clients of a black hole in the belly.

John: Yep.

Sara: The black hole in the belly. I know you discussed in your book the difference between deficient emptiness and full emptiness.

John: This is a distinction, Almaas makes.

Sara: Almaas, yeah, right. And in some of my work with my clients, although I think in this sense of the black hole in the belly, there was a sense of a kind of deficient emptiness or a way that the personal will or self did not get to develop in a healthy way. We've also been able to use it as a portal by kind of going up to the edge of that black hole and checking out what's really there, what's really at the edge of that. And it's sort of transformed into a cauldron. It's transformed into kind of other kind of magical portals or like a great expanse of the starry Milky Way.

John: That's interesting, isn't it?

Sara: Yeah.

John: Yeah, this kind of empty. What happens is, and this has been quite interesting to see, is what we do is we project our early childhood worldview onto reality. So if we've been abandoned, then reality is abandoning. If we've been attacked, reality is attacking. If we've been engulfed, reality is engulfing. And then to actually question that and discover something very different, you know, that that archaic projection is just that. Yeah. You know, and there's like luminosity, the stars. That's what I was struck by in that image. Like there's something, some luminosity in this darkness and that it's not just, you know, a dark vortex that pulls us under an endless grieving or powerlessness. I mean, I'm thinking what might be true of a black hole in the heart or the solar plexus, but it's actually a way through. Right. And this is just, I'll mention it as an aside. It's been very interesting, this theme of portals, because the heart is a fundamental portal to our being and to our love and our non-separation. And there are many layers to that. But as it opens, it feels like the backspace opens. It's like this love is coming through, you know, from behind and from in front as well. And this is true here in the solar plexus, which tends to be the center of the personal will, which you were alluding to. And if it gets crushed early on, you know, it needs actually to be developed, set boundaries, say no, say what you want and don't want. But there's a deeper dimension to that as well. And where we feel what could be, as Jolig called, a transpersonal will or a will that's non-personal. There's a movement of some power, creative power, but not power over, but a life-giving power as well. So this area of the gut is very interesting, very, very lively, dynamic area.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think this theme of will and control is really interesting. That comes up a lot in your work and that part of what we're releasing as we release the false ground is the illusion that we can, through will, create our own ground or we can, through our will, control our reality so that we feel comfortable and safe, so that we don't have to experience suffering. And it seems like this clenching, you know, this like embodied clenching that you describe, I've experienced it for many years in my jaw.

John: In the jaw.

Sara: Right, as though I'm literally trying to hold the world together with my mouth. That I'm trying to, you know.

John: That's right.

Sara: Right? And as though that density, as though we're trying to create more density in the body and that that will give us stability.

John: That will give us safety.

Sara: Safety.

John: That's the contraction.

Sara: Right.

John: You know, it's like if I can be tight enough, I'll be safe.

Sara: Right, right.

John: And we discover the opposite is true.

Sara: The opposite.

John: We discover the opposite is true.

Sara: Yeah.

John: Like that tightly controlled way of being creates tremendous suffering. It doesn't release us from suffering and it doesn't make us any safer. So the issue of safety is so important. You know, our lives are organized around the issue of safety. And so it's like what you're pointing to is to question this theme of safety. What is safety and what creates safety?

Sara: Right. Right. And the other side of that being trust. That we can really trust this groundless ground. Even though it is groundless, even though we're carried along it, maybe like a river. More so. Like a river. Right. But we can trust it. I remember an experience on a meditation retreat where something in me really released. And I had this image. It was almost like in the scene in Cinderella where the little birds came and wove her dress for her. I felt as though there was just something being repaired and healed and attended to. And it was such a kind of heart-melting experience. Because there is something there that's holding and tending me. And it's dynamic. It's not static. But there's something I can trust. And so.

John: This is fundamental. I mean it seems, earlier I was saying it's all about letting go. It's about letting go and trusting. If I had to say what is the spiritual life about essentially, I'd say it's about trust. Not faith. It's a lot about believing in something. But it's a visceral trust. And it doesn't mean bad things so-called won't happen. Or that we won't have difficulties. We won't get sick. We won't be disabled. It doesn't mean any of that. It's much more fundamental and exactly the way that you're talking about that there is something greater here that's holding us and guiding this show. And this expression that we can relax into like a river. Right. And we ease into it again and again and again. And as we do it takes us in unexpected directions. We meet unexpected people. Unexpected doors open. And we feel more and more intimate really with life. So we're kind of, it's like it's a safety, we see through the illusion of relative safety. Yes, I mean, you know, we do take care of our body, mind. We do avoid, we don't take unreasonable risks. And, you know, we do take care of ourself. But on that fundamental level, you know, that contracted level of trying to keep it all together and trying to control what we can't in order to be safe, there is a release. And there is an ease. And we do feel ourselves more and more trusting of the flow of life.

Sara: Yeah. And, you know, I'm just struck by that. That's not something that we can will or that we can rush that trust and that knowing. Like we can know it theoretically, but to really know it is something that is a process of attuning, becoming more and more intimate with the layers of conditioning, bringing kind and compassionate attention to them. And that knowing gradually sinks through the body.

John: It does. Yeah. And it's a gradual process. It's a reorientation.

Sara: Yeah.

John: Often preceded by a disorientation. Some, you know, we have a certain comfort zone that's actually not so comfortable, right? And where we don't learn very much. And as we start letting go of that and learning more, it can be shaky. It can be disorienting. But it leads to a deeper orientation as well. It takes time. It takes courage. It takes a willingness. Much more than willfulness. Willingness to be open and discover what's really true.

Sara: So we just have a couple of minutes left. And I'm just wondering these last couple of minutes, if there's anything that you want to offer around how can how can our CIIS community integrate these teachings into their spiritual practice or into their meditation practice to make more space for the deepest ground, to kind of bring in this willingness rather than this willfulness. Any practical tips that you would have? Or if there's a different direction you want to go for the last couple.

John: Or impractical tips.

Sara: Or impractical tips. Could be a koan, you know, whoever wants to come through.

John: I don't do koan work. Well, I would begin with curiosity. It's like become become more curious about what's happening in the lower half of your body. Pay more attention. Like start to listen to the interior of your body, to the trunk of your body, and particularly the lower half. And you know, it can help to imagine breathing. This is like a basic meditation, mindfulness meditation. It's like just sit and put your hands on your lower belly and breathe. It could be a formal meditation or informal. But it's more about it's a way of anchoring attention lower. And one of the things I didn't talk about at all, and maybe I'll say a little bit here, which is about the nature. There's layers to the ground. Like there's this psychological material that unwinds itself and often has a quality of being underground and in a basement or a sub-basement. Sometimes it's interesting as the personal conditioning clears, ancestral conditioning comes in. Lineages. And I did want to mention that because that's part of the ground. And that's actually part of the reason I postponed writing the book is because even though I knew I was familiar with Jung's teachings to some extent, I wasn't trained in it, but loved his memoir and read a number of his books. And that resonated for me. I needed to go back before I wrote this book. And this is my inner guidance. And I write about this in order to revisit this archetypal level, what Jung called the land of the dead, which corresponds very closely with ancestral conditioning. Not entirely the same, but really closely related. And he called the collective unconscious the land of the dead, unredeemed and unanswered. And this is very resonant for me now. And so part of this is, you know, speaking of like the native people who've lived on this land, you know, and our native people and ancestors. All of this is in the mix of the deep psyche, you know, the human psyche. And in this process of opening to the ground and being curious and open, this material will sometimes emerge if it needs to. So it's important part of it. Be curious. Educate yourself. Like learn more about this. Be open in your exploration. Be courageous too. Because as we understand kind of the importance of this, it's important not just for our individual awakening and growth and transformation. This is important collectively. Because this is like the opposite of self-indulgence. We're really looking at what we take to be the self and seeing through it. And that opens up dimensions that are collective in terms of human past experience, but just essential in terms of a relationship to life and one another and to society and to how we're going to be moving collectively. You know, in our economic systems and our systems of governance, how we relate to the natural environment. Do we relate in a way of dominating and exploiting? Or do we relate that this too is my true nature and needs to be treasured, you know, and needs to be not just respected, but really enhanced and supported as well. So there are many implications here. And I think we need, I think we're in a real crisis, you know, collectively as human beings. Unprecedented. We've been in prior ones, but this one's, I think our trajectory is very shaky at this point. And so we need all hands on deck. And we need our contemplatives to be involved and share their wisdom and activists to connect with their depths. And for all of us to understand that we each play an important part in this unfolding and to do our best in support of that.

Sara: Thank you. I mean, I feel like you're really speaking to the underworld journey, you know, the willingness to, as you said in your work, to make the descent and to meet the layers of archetypal layers, the personal layers, collective layers there rather than bypassing, right? This is really an antidote.

John: And rather than acting them out again and again and again in cycles of violence.

Sara: Right, right, which we're seeing in some ways it seems like colonialism and modernity are kind of collective actions of the false ground, of a sense of needing to control, a sense that we can provide safety.

John: Domination controls safety, all that authoritarianism.

Sara: Right, right.

John: Domination. It's all out of that. It's the same theme.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely.

John: So addressing it on collective levels and individual levels and weaving those as well. So we all have something to contribute to that.

Sara: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much, John. I wish we could have another hour to talk about this topic.

John: Yeah, me too. It's rich, isn't it?

Sara: It's very rich. I'm just so grateful for this conversation. Your work has inspired me personally. I use it in my spiritual counseling courses and so I hope some of my students are watching this as well. It's just really such a privilege to get to converse with you and receive your transmissions directly. So thank you so much.

John: Transmission received. Likewise.

Sara: It's been wonderful.

John: Given and received. I very much appreciate it, Sarah. Yeah, lovely to be with you and to be with everyone. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Sara: Thank you all. 
 

Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef and hosted by Alex Elliott at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. CIIS Public Programs are produced by the Office of Events at California Institute of Integral Studies. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.