Norma Kawelokū Wong: Who We Are Becoming Matters

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Jeanine Canty: Good evening, Roshi Wong. It's such an honor to meet you and have this time with you.  

Norma Wong: Aloha. Aloha. I am so glad to be with you. We are in different time zones in different parts of the world right now. But through this aspect of technology, we can be in the same place. I do not take that for granted at all.  

Jeanine Canty: And congratulations. I know this is the official, your book, this new book just launched, I think today or yesterday, so it's such an auspicious occasion to have you here at CIIS.  

Norma Wong: Thank you so much.  

Jeanine Canty: Okay. Well, your new book, Who We Are Becoming Matters, it seems to center around the evolutionary consciousness that we need to develop and embody in order to meet our present time of crisis and collapse. What inspired you to write this book, and can you say a little bit more about this need?  

Norma Wong: Well, the aspect of all of the shifts and changes that are occurring in the world, the ones that we are the instigators of and the ones that we are the defenders against, really have been at coming to a draw, which is to say that in almost every arena that you can think of, not only in this country but across the globe, that all the things that matter are effectively coming to almost an equal pro position and anti position. And this has been building for some time. So people tend to look for ideas to counter other ideas. The question becomes, who is it that is creating these ideas and implementing these ideas? So while there's much hullabaloo about artificial intelligence, and don't get me started along those lines, that for the foreseeable future, we're going to need human intelligence. And beyond human intelligence, human wisdom, in order to break the logjam in a transformative way, not in ways that would merely depend upon having more power than the entities and the ideas that we're in opposition to. If we're to depend on power, then we can write the demise of our peoples and the planet as we know it. We could just say that's the trajectory as it's going to be. So to be more transformative requires actual transformation to occur. And if actual transformation is to occur, that has to do with whether or not we as humans are going to become more than just the sum total of what we have always been. In many ways, a thing for us to consider is that of the species of the world, all the beings of the world, it appears that humans have evolved the least, right, of all the beings.  

Jeanine Canty: Right.

Norma Wong: So we have somehow resisted the natural course of evolution for the most part. And I'm speaking about the parts that are not having to do with our physical attributes. I'm talking about our spiritual attributes, our wisdom attributes, our capacity to interrupt habits, to not just be reactive animals. Those kinds of things appear to have not moved as quickly as plankton. So here we are, believing that we know better. And the question is, will we be able to evolve more quickly than the devolution towards our own demise?  

Jeanine Canty: Wow. Yeah, yeah. I love the way that you're framing that. And yeah, it's a lot to take in. In my field, we talk a lot about arrested development in us, and yeah, you're really naming that, we're such babies as humans. Yeah. Well, I want to maybe rewind a little bit. And over winter break, I got to read, pre-read your book. And I was just, I am all about you and listened to a number of podcasts and the interview that you did last year, also with Sonia Shaw at CIIS  and also something at Commonweal. And just in such a small volume, you drop so much wisdom in this book. And I wonder if you could just share a bit more. You have such an impressive background. Could you share a little bit about how you've been involved in both the political and the spiritual?  

Norma Wong: So, you know, it's, I don't think that those need to be on opposite sides of the scale of conduct, right? So it's an interesting thing that it's, it's like one of the things people ask, how did you, what came first? Right? They ask what came first. And I would say I was very, very fortunate to engage politically and spiritually almost in the same moment. So certainly within the same calendar year. And to do that very early, both in my biological life, but also in my political life. So to engage at that same moment, you know, looking in the rear view mirror, I would say that I didn't have to answer as many questions of myself because I was developing my compass at the same time that I was engaged in the work, rather than having one delayed, right, from the other. And I would say that's just luck, that all of this happened at the same time. But I highly recommend it. I had no plan for that to be the case. You know, so from a Zen perspective though, right, we'd say that if you pay attention, then these kinds of so-called coincidences are not serendipitous. They are, because you are in the rhythm of the universe that these things would align. Right? And so whatever that case might be, that I do consider myself to be extraordinarily fortunate to have both of those pathways intertwined rather than having to duke it out as far as, which is going to take supremacy on the basis of a decision or something that I'm going to do or not do.  

Jeanine Canty: Thank you. Yeah, I imagine with one or the other, if you had gotten, there's such a risk of imbalance, so you've had the perfect path. Well, what is collective acceleration?  

Norma Wong: So collective acceleration is a learning community of people who are exploring the questions of when in a time when everything appears to be accelerating with respect to collapse, whether it is possible to collectively accelerate towards our evolution of meeting that challenge and creating a thriving world on the other side, and not only as a matter of having a place that exists after the collapse, but also to lessen the suffering while the collapse is occurring. And to understand that together the dynamics of what it would take for us to do, what it would take for us to be if we're going to stand up in this challenge.  

Jeanine: Yeah, thank you. That's such a deep, I always want you to say that one word, that’s such a deep concept and practice. It sounds like it's also a practice.  

Norma: It is indeed a practice. I would say, you know, I was just going to say the word, right, it's audacious, right? That we would do that. It's more audacious than, than optimistic. Okay? So we're not saying this as a guaranteed proposition. What we're saying is that if we do not make this concerted purposeful attempt, then the trajectory is written. We kind of know. We kind of know where it's going to go. And we know that because on a daily basis, at increased clip, we're getting all of the data of all the things that are falling apart. And so one doesn't have to do anything at all. And that will be the outcome. Okay? So therefore, without, without a risk analysis of the probability, right? It's we know that doing nothing will get us to one outcome, right? And therefore, standing up with both purpose and determination and humility, that having a shot at. It would also mean that in the course of our current lives, we will live with very significant purpose. And living with significant purpose, I believe, is like one of the ways in which your life could not only have meaning, but have joy, even in really, really difficult circumstances. So I'm not downplaying any aspect of the challenge. And so that said, I would say this is a community that is continuing to grow. And what makes me hopeful is that people are very much arising to the challenge across the globe, to meet needs and to help each other.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Yeah. Well, you make a profound and very bold claim in your book that rather than peace being the opposite of war, it's creation. So creation is the opposite of war. Could you unpack this a bit for us?  

Norma: So I did not create the phrase.  

Jeanine: Ahh.

Norma: Yes. So that, that phrase actually comes from the Broadway show Rent.  

Jeanine: Oh, I've seen that.  

Norma: So if it's familiar, it comes from that. So if we think about war and violence as essentially destruction, then you have to actually be in construction. So like if you're destroying a null state will not repair the ground. Okay? And so there's that part about the way in, in many ways, we basically say the way in which we hold peace as a null state. And, you know, that, the, when I first heard the phrase from the show, I thought, oh, this is very familiar. And it's, it's familiar because my teacher, my spiritual teacher really talked about the necessity to wage peace. So therefore, you know, it's like, it's not like a state of not, of not doing this. It's a state where you have to meet the challenge before it arises and meet the challenge before it arises. And essentially, from that position of forethought, right, move the dime towards more harmony. So that kind of state is very active. It's very active and requires creativity. It requires not just a, a not that kind of scheme, right? You can't just stand and shout, not that. In many ways, you have to actually create the ground on which people could turn and move in the other direction. So, so that state of being is extraordinarily active. If it is peace, it would be the kind of peace you would find at the bottom of a waterfall.  

Jeanine: Oh, yeah, I love that. Wow. Yeah. Well, that is an image to contemplate. Well, in your book, another statement, and this one, I'm very sure comes from, directly from you, is the notion of, yeah, this is right aligned, the notion of no agency is antithetical to human experience in the most horrific circumstances, slavery, imprisonment, genocide, disenfranchement, a cup of water is offered, a smile shared, beauty found, love blooms, even in grief, immense unheralded sacrifices made for the sake of others among innumerable small acts of humanity. And this feels like such deep wisdom for those of us who witness the immense suffering of our times, yet that still have access to these moments of awe and joy. And it speaks to the importance of this for everyone. Could you talk a bit more about this? I just love it.  

Norma: Yeah. It's a, violence is, violence grows in the place that the spirit has left. Which is also to say that, irrespective of where we sit on ideology, or beliefs, we can all find ourselves in the driver's seat of violence. So there's that part about, about the, keeping the humanity alive, in us, not by blocking out what is occurring in the world that we don't want in the world. So to see all the things. To hear all the things. To know all the things that are occurring. But to keep that humanity alive. And the question is, how do you do that? And, and, you know, story after story after story throughout history, it's always been because a person sees another person or another being. An animal or a plant. That is a need of care. And that you offer it. And that if you offer that care, the care is reciprocated. And so you are fed by that which you offer. And that feeding, that feeding, which is not dependent on your oppressor to feed you. That feeding builds a strength within you, okay? It adds to you. And in the most dire circumstances, you need that to survive and still be human or to die with the peace of humanity, okay? Right? In the most dire of circumstances, that is, that which it is you need. So, to practice that on a regular basis, to not ignore that. To, you know, to be kind to the person who is checking you out at the grocery stand, not ignore the parking attendant. Stop talking when you're served at the restaurant. To even just acknowledge another human right now matters extraordinarily. Because isolation is the way that people are divided between each other and picked off. And siloed into places where collective understanding, let alone collective action, can occur. Okay? So connection, connection is the first prerequisite for the relationship that will arise to kinship. And among indigenous people, that kinship is everything. And does not mean that it is only about the people of your blood, or of your family. And so in order for that to occur it is really about the simplest of service of human needs. Which as it turns out, is not as simple at all. We are fast reaching a state in this country, the country that, you know, a good number of your folks who are listening in. So I would say, fast reaching a need within North America, which would include more than the United States, in which upwards of 25% of the people will have needs of, with respect to food, that may or may not be able to be counted on, in terms of, the government providing that, okay? We're close to reaching that threshold. So just the kind act of sharing food, is a thing. And it's actually easier to be done. Just by people between people. Rather than trying to stand up central systems. So it's central systems which are struggling, even the ones that are led by benign leaders, okay? Even systems that are led by people who believe in the commons, in the common good, are struggling right now. They're struggling. And so, the question is, are we going to outsource our humanity to a system? Or are we going to pay attention to the people who are just in the proximity around us. And acknowledge, and do what we can.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Yeah. As you were speaking, just, it just, that connection that you're talking about, just that drawing out, is so important. And it seems like everything that you're speaking about is so much of the action. The being, the, yeah, just really the again, the creation, the creativity. That again, it's not an idle state. Let's see here. So, yeah, in researching more of your life work and background. It was really cool to learn about your political and advocacy career and how your work also affected indigenous environmental justice issues. And I'm also a fan of the late Hawaiian activist Haunani Trask. And I was so excited, delighted, to learn that you two had collaborated. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about your political and environmental justice background. And how your dedication to Buddhism has supported this. And I know you said a little bit about it earlier.  

Norma: So I am so old that I was doing my work before it was called environmental justice. Okay. In a little bit, in a few weeks time I'll be 70. I'm fine owning that. I'm really fine owning that. You know, Haunani-Kay and I were not always on the same side of a political fight. Okay? And a thing that you learn over time, are the roles that people would play and need to play inside and outside of the various systems and containers. I like to think about organizations and movements and roles as containers. So we have that and then the question becomes, can we actually embrace the whole of that and understand that we need those different roles to move whatever it is we need to move forward. This year marks, 2026 marks the 50th anniversary of Native Hawaiians stepping onto the land at Kahoʻolawe, the island of Kahoʻolawe, which was used as an active bombing target by the United States and their allies, and was sacred to Native Hawaiians. And it was used as a bombing target from 1939 until the 1990s. And the, 50 years ago, Native Hawaiians took up the modern day active cause to trespass the island. The Native Hawaiian governor that I worked for as a wet behind the ears young one who didn't know that she was young, John Waihee, is the one and only Native Hawaiian governor that the state of Hawaiʻi has had in its statehood period. And I was very fortunate to be working in his office as a 30 year old. He as a 40 year old, we were quite young. And we didn't know that there are limits to what it is that you would go for. And so therefore, we went for it. And I was very fortunate to be part of the team that negotiated the return of the island. And importantly, cleanup. The munitions cleanup of the island. And that, in doing that, we had to actually press with our congressional delegation to exempt the cleanup from US environmental laws. Because under US environmental laws, you cannot clean up munitions and then allow people onto that land. Munitions are considered to be too dangerous for that. And so therefore, what the US environmental laws call for, is you just put a fence around it and don't allow people in. And the notion that you could not restore an island, that you would not be able to bring life back to it, that you would not be able to go to that place that was sacred and to do your ceremonies and to call upon your ancestors, would have been shameful and heartbreaking. And would mean that we would not have fulfilled our generational responsibility. And we would pass it down, the unfulfillment. But instead, the Protect Kahoʻolawe ʻOhana and those of us who were inside of government, that, we worked really hard for there to be no separation between the community, the people, and the state government. For us not to be separate parties. For us to be one people. And I feel honored to be able to say, 50 years later, that I would be sitting side by side with the late Emmett Noa Aluli, and to sit across the table from the US Navy. To represent our people and to be able to say, today Native Hawaiians and the state of Hawaii stand together. That is not an easy thing. If I look in the rear view mirror I would say, I wonder how it is we were able to pull that off. But today the land is coming back to life. Because people go to the island as volunteers, both Native Hawaiians and people who are not indigenous. They eagerly sign up to go and help to replant and stem the erosion. To bring the practices in life, not as descriptions. To make it possible for all of that to occur. And when we find a piece of munitions that has by erosion come back to the surface, our agreements remain in place for the military to come and to take them away. And we know that because that is the nature of things, our future is intertwined. And intertwined in a more productive way than it was in the past. All of this before we knew it to be a thing called environmental justice.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Well, I was also really struck by, you make a statement that it only takes three people to start a movement. Could you explain?  

Norma: Yes, so, so there's this element known as critical mass, which actually comes from science, the physical sciences. And the inhuman endeavor, that the notion of moving forward with something, I think that we've come to a place where we have depended more on process than anything else. And here I'm saying that you want to interrupt process. And what you want to do is to cultivate relationship towards purpose. And in cultivating relationship towards purpose, you really only need three. So if you have only one person, then it's just one person's idea. And if you have two people, then it is too perilous. You know, it could fall away very quickly. And the addition of a third person allows for a certain possibility of building upon that. So a way to think about that is, would you sit on a stool that only has one leg? If it has two legs, you could, but you have to sit very carefully, making sure that you didn't move too much. You could, but it was two legs. But if it has three legs, it would be quite stable. And in fact, a three-legged stool has more mobility than a four-legged chair. It actually could be used for many different purposes. And so there's that part that comes from the physical world that tells us what may be necessary in terms of human relationship.  

Jeanine: Wonderful. I love that too, because in some of the depth psychology pieces and so many of our ancestral wisdom traditions, it's like the three goddesses that get together to make everything happen. And it can be any genders.  

Norma: That’s right.

Jeanine: Thank you.  

Norma: You can find it in the Tao Te Ching. You can find it in Sufi, Sufi wisdom. So I would say our ancestors studied this for a while.  

Jeanine: Yeah, definitely. Well, and you also state that without evolution, revolution is a leap without strategy. So how do you see this unfolding in our world right now?  

Norma: Well, I would say that our evolution is at fits and starts because we don't give it its due. We're not actually putting much focus on that. But can we be the better people? Right? Not only from, on the stage of morality. You know, we're talking about being the better people. No, can we be better than who we are right now? Right, okay? So we are somehow more inclined to improve machines than we are to pay attention to our own improvement. And that we're learning many lessons from revolutions. But I am also, you know, strategy is like the backbone of my learning. So I would say, you know, well before I entered either the community organizing space or the political space or the spiritual space, that strategy was like the way in which I navigated the world. And from a strategy perspective, revolutions have had a pretty dismal outcome in the last 20 or 30 years. And we can actually create revolution faster now than we did 30 or 40 years ago. But we don't have a better outcome as far as what happens after the revolution.  

Jeanine: Yeah.  

Norma: Okay?  

Jeanine: Yeah.  

Norma: And so that tells me that we've learned how to interrupt and dismantle, but not necessarily learned how to, you know, do, if I could use a martial arts term, jujitsu, right? The situation into governance. Okay? And potentially we do that because we have put too much emphasis on the power aspect of governance. Rather than on the aspects of governance that have to do with, you know, doing the work that would allow for a realignment of people's and place and beings that would allow people's place and beings to be in more harmony or at least less conflict. Right?  

Jeanine: Yeah.  

Norma: Okay. And so there's that, that, if we're spinning in place, I don't think more strategy is going to get us out of it. We have to, we have to actually think differently. We have to have a different type of way in which we will see the world and be in the world and act in the world, bring about a different aspect of our humanity. And I believe that evolution is required for that. Not just idea generation.  

Jeanine: Thank you. And yeah, and just even going back to those of caring for one another and getting out of ourselves and serving in the most simplest ways, which you speak so dearly about. Well, I loved how in your new book you emphasize meditating with the eyes open. And I relate to this all and being alert to the news and what's going on with our eyes open. And I was also trained in a tradition where we meditate with the eyes open. And I also appreciate how this encourages one to be with nature and the immediate, rather than shutting everything out. And I wonder if you could speak to all of that.  

Norma: So to, you know, I, the people meditate for different reasons, all kinds of different reasons. The, and the form of meditation should match the purpose for your meditation. I think that, in modern times, the popularity of meditation has meant some blurring of that, where people think of meditation as a generic activity. And so the meditation form that is used to increase one's senses in order for there not to be as much of a boundary between you and the environment and you and other beings. That, that type of meditation is, has to be done in a way in which you are essentially becoming more and more alert. Right? That sitting in a place you actually hear, oh, there are birds or there's a gecko in the rafters and hopefully not right over me. As geckos are known to drop their, their biology parts, biological parts. So, so the, I encourage people to think about, what is their purpose for meditation? And before they just generically take up any kind of meditation. For some people, meditation is really about slowing down and coming into a state where they're not as flustered about things, you know, and, you know, all of those other types of things. And if that is the case, then there's very little need to do the type of intensive meditation where you're working really to come into the rhythm of what's around you and open up all your senses. Or as my teacher would say, as he said to, he said, he, he said to many people who couldn't figure out why they're sitting. Says, if you're, if you're just doing meditation to relax, I recommend beer.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Let's see. Well, I was also, you want you, you have a great statement, striking statement, with the bundled core of courage is the willingness to face defeat and victory equally without hesitation. Courage comes in many packages, quiet, fierce, leading following for and with, seen and unseen. Could you speak more to this?  

Norma: So, you know, I pay attention to these things quite a bit, because I'm an introvert. So, you know, as an introvert, you know, I, I'm actually not the first person to exclaim something or say something in a particular space. Okay? I'm also a strategist so I wait for the opening. And then as a strategist, I use the most efficient way to get a point across versus the most dramatic. And as an introvert, that is a person who is right thumb over left thumb. In the book I talk about the different… So I'm, I, I, I move through a rational lens. Rather than an emotive lens. So for a rational lens, large exclamations just use up a lot of energy. What usefulness are they? Unless they're needed. And then, yes, I am capable of loud exclamations. So in a situation, would I appear to be courageous or not? Okay, right? Some of that is culturally bound by what, you know, what the culture is that you're in. That, and also whether in a room, in terms of which gender energy is making itself known. Or generational energy, making itself known. And I've come to understand that, that attributes like courage have to be recognized across a spectrum of expression and deed and timing and all of that. Or we won't be able to collectively take advantage of the various aspects of courage that are needed. Situationally. Okay? We're only going to recognize and applaud or reward one kind. And I think that's showing itself to be dangerous.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Well, what wisdom do you have for those of us who feel that the world is breaking apart and need some encouragement?  

Norma: I say, do a bit every day in service of something else. And set aside the notion of whether anyone's going to do that for you. So I think that part of our dismay and upsetness is because we've spent now five, six decades, maybe I'd say six decades centering our actions and advocacy in changing the world through systems. Okay? And those systems, even the ones that are led by people that we admire and who believe in the same things that we do, are just suffering in of themselves. They're like the stretch too thin. Too many needs. Too few things that were taken off any plate. And so therefore we have an endless number of things that we're attempting to do at any given time. And so there are extreme structural defects. And our upsetness, our disappointment is in the fact that we actually dedicated a good amount of our effort and our passion and our strategy, to change these systems. Okay? All right. Let's just acknowledge that all of that effort was not for naught. Particularly if you understand that there's a cyclical nature to all things. Nothing in the universe remains the same. It's only humans that think that we can somehow keep things the same. Right? And there's a lot of agency required right now. And that agency has to be about billions of small things to push it in singular effort towards moving beyond the collapse. Okay?  

Jeanine: Yeah.  

Norma: All right. You see some rubbish, pick it up. Is somebody suffering, ask what it is you can do. Right? That dead plant on your shelf that you have not thrown away, it's beyond repair. Throw it away. Okay? Clear the decks of things that are not important to you, to make room for the things that you're now going to have to rise beyond, you know, your petty existence. Right?  

Jeanine: Yeah.  

Norma: There's a lot of stuff that can be done productively at this moment. And you can't wait for central orders to come to you, in order to do that. Don't outsource the innate leadership that we're called upon to bring forward.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Gosh, I know we're winding down our time of conversation and I've got two more things and I'll name both of them. First, what excites you right now? And then second, you share so many gifts with this world and nonetheless your poetry, which I am adoring. And I wonder if there's a short poem or stanza that you would like to share to close this part of our dialogue.  

Norma: Okay. Well, I'll share something that excites me that is just going to be a secret between you and me and how many other people who are on this. And that is, I finished my first cut of a third book.  

Jeanine: Oh my gosh.  

Norma: And what excites me actually is, and it's related to your second question, which is there is a poem in that book, and it has not yet been greenlit by any publisher or whatnot, so I am therefore saying all of this without knowing what will happen. But there's a poem in that book that when I read it to myself, I hear freestyle rap going on. And so I'm looking for the person who would be able to give it justice. I can now not look at it without hearing it.  

Jeanine: I love that.  

Norma: And delivering it that way. So that's what excites me. Let me see if I can find a short passage somewhere, not from that.  

Jeanine: Okay, I was like Roshi Wong is going to beatbox for us.  

Norma: I'm certain I can't give it justice. And so I'm hearing perhaps someone else. Let's see. Let me see if I can find something here. Okay. Let me just read a little bit from chapter eight. So that's Wholeness Is Not An Accommodation. Wholeness as a slogan, excellent for food, including the spiritual kind and as in food, more useful as food than slogan. To be one with, is wholeness and wholeness just is. Wholeness is not accommodation of our troubled existence. Seeking to include the farthest of one side with the farthest of the other. Sides, all loud voices does not intactness make. Intactness is wholeness worthy of endeavor. Not accommodation, not opposite of, separation, division, subtraction of human life. Not accommodation, not opposite of turmoil. As if a static state like a stale pond of politeness, holding one's nose, shutting tight the sounds of unfiltered diatribes. You know, pretending, the kind we are capable of.  

Jeanine: Thank you. Wow. That almost means... Well, probably 10 more readings to digest all of that really. Yeah, really deep. I'm actually, I heard you read one of your poems on another interview for something you did with Commonweal and your interviewer and you. And I'm going to read that poem at our faculty council meeting tomorrow. It really just, yeah, your poetry, it just hits. Yeah. So I'm elated about your third, your third work and I hope you come back to CIIS  when that's released to share it.  

Norma: Thank you so much. We do not yet know whether it will be published but we’ll see.

Jeanine: Oh I'm sure it will. And I just want to honor the work that you're doing and the inspiration that you're bringing folks, but also the call. The title of your book is just so perfect on who we are becoming matters. And yeah, I hope you keep coming back to CIIS  and that your work really, I know it's already having so much impact, but that it gets quite far, far because it's so deep. And so thank you, Roshi Wong. I don't know if there's anything you want to say before we close.  

Norma: Well, I want to thank you so much, very much. You know, it's, I don't take for granted at all that two people who have never met before, you know, would be able to have an intimate conversation and that we would be able to do it with other people who are in the room. And in ways that hopefully matter for at least one other person. And so thank you so much. Thank you for your work. Thank you for dedicating your efforts to your, your students and for being who it is that you are.  

Jeanine: Thank you.  

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