Dr. Thema Bryant: On Trauma Recovery and Reclaiming Yourself

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Rachel Bryant: Hi, Dr. Thema. Welcome to this Public Program. Welcome, everyone who's joined us tonight. Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to this conversation. How are you tonight?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Thank you. I am wonderful. I'm excited that we're cousins with the same last name and that we have our blue on for this healing conversation. So I'm grateful and excited.

Rachel Bryant: Well, since you mentioned that, cousins, you know, I think it’s a good way to start to tell us who you’re people are. Where are you from? Who are your people?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes. Yes. Wonderful.

Rachel Bryant: And maybe we are cousins. I'm from Arkansas. My Bryant family is from Arkansas. What about you?

Dr. Thema Bryant: We're South Carolina, but it's still possible, we go back far enough. I am Dr. Thema Bryant, and I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland. On my father's side, we are the Bryant's and my mom's side, the Williams. But if we go back far enough, thanks to our DNA testing, I come from the Mende people of Sierra Leone. And I am grateful for ancestors who paved the way for us to be here, both known and unknown, recognized and unrecognized. There is the African saying, I am because we are. And so knowing that it's because people before me sacrificed and labored and prayed and dreamed and reimagined that I'm able to be here. I live in Los Angeles. And I am the child and grandchild of griots, of ministers, of educators, of community leaders, of artists, and all of that runs in me and is alive in me. And I'm happy to say it continues on in my two children, who are Efe and Ayo, and those names mean love and joy. So I am feeling, feeling full in life and holding both ancestors and descendants at the same time.

Rachel Bryant: Now that's how you introduce yourself. Thank you so much for taking the time to tell us about that. It's so evident the way that the ancestors are working through you on behalf of all of us, on behalf of humanity. We're here to talk about your latest book, Take Back Your Life from Stress and Trauma. It's Reclaim Yourself, the Homecoming Workbook. Yes, I have been looking forward to it. And you– my impression of reading this book is that everything you just said comes through on every page. You are a minister and a psychologist and a daughter and a mother and a healer and someone who's been healed. And you write with such tenderness and almost feels like it's a love letter, maybe to yourself first before you get into us. And you also position yourself in this book. Like you're also really literally in this book, you introduce yourself, not quite the same way you did with us, but you introduce yourself. So what inspired you to write with that level of intimacy and authenticity? Because that's not the way, I know you're training as a psychologist, I'm not sure about a minister, but you get propped up on these roles, you get these titles, positions, but there's an intimacy to this book. Yeah, so what inspired you to bring yourself right into this?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Thank you so much for acknowledging that, seeing that, hearing that in the tone. And it is intentional. I have books before so Reclaim Yourself is the workbook inspired by the book Homecoming. Homecoming came out in 2022. Yes, that's the book, Reclaim Yourself. And while I have several books before these, most of those books are more academic. So they're textbooks. And as you're saying, like there's this kind of technical or scientific way that you write and kind of making your scientific argument and all of your citations, because you can't say something unless someone said it first. So these kind of rules and restrictions. And I really was in a point in my life, both personally and professionally, of recognizing, one, that knowledge is power, and two, wanting to give the information to people in a way that they can use it. So the point is not like, can I write this in a way that sounds smart, right? That it is, I want to land on the target. And the target is our heart. And to land in such a way that when people read it, they understand it and they feel it. And they can apply it, because it doesn't make sense for it to feel good and then we remain as we are. And so that, and I love you saying it being first a love letter to myself, because it's for people who have faced stress and trauma. And I have faced stress and trauma. So it's not just a hypothetical guess at what people might need to know. But it's based on both my lived experience, but also these decades of working with people, helping people to reclaim themselves. And all of that is rooted in love. So I would say that is in it and guiding it is a love for humanity and a hope for us to be able to get to the truth of ourselves and not to remain disconnected.

Rachel Bryant: We'll get into that some more. I definitely want to talk about that part of the book about disconnection. This book, you call it a truth telling. I'm going to read a quote because it struck me. It's like one of the first pages. “This is not a pep talk. This is truth telling.” So why do you say that? And what is the truth? Who's truth?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Right. Yes. So a pep talk can feel very empty. Usually a pep talk is motivational to get you to do something or to convince you to believe something. And like I don't have an agenda. As you said, like who's truth, it should be your own truth. Right? That's the piece with therapy. It's not for the therapist to tell you what you should do or to decide for you. It is to have us each confront the truth of our own souls. And then we know what to do. And often what I've discovered is we know what to do, but we're afraid or we're lacking support or we don't know the steps of how to get from where I am to where I want to be. And so one of the first steps in reclaiming yourself or coming home to yourself is to tell yourself the truth. And so sometimes it's not just that we lie to other people. We can lie to ourselves. You know, what's the biggest lie probably that we say? I'm fine. How are you? I'm fine. We don't even think about it. And it's like, are you? You know, that would be remarkable to be fine with everything that is happening. You know, so for us, we cannot heal wounds we won't acknowledge. And so it's a beautiful thing to be able to tell ourselves the truth of our circumstance, because then we're in a place to say, okay, now what? That is the truth. And so now what?

Rachel Bryant: Thank you. It's amazing to me how much that line, I'm fine, I'm good. How much that walks, right? Goes unquestioned, right?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes.

Rachel Bryant: It doesn't matter if someone else, it would be nice if your community and the people that love you go a little bit deeper, like really? But it’s more important that we do that for ourselves. And so in order to come home, that means you've left home.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes.

Rachel Bryant: And you describe it as, you know, when did you lose yourself? And so talk a little bit about what it means to come home and to have left home so that you can come back home. What do you mean by that? What is home?

Dr. Thema Bryant: So home is authenticity. Home is being real. Home is true. And why did we leave home or what made us disconnect from the truth of ourselves? Many different circumstances. One, we get the message very early on of what we need to do or say or how we need to present ourselves to be liked, to be loved, to be chosen, to be thought highly of, you know. And so those messages not only come from your family, it comes from your peer group, it comes from teachers, it comes from the mass media. And so we come to believe things about ourselves. But one of my dear sister friends, Asia, who's a poet, has a poem that says, “Who lied,” right? You know, who told you you weren't good enough? Who told you there was a problem with your nose or with your hair? Who told you that your body was misshaped? What– who told you that your voice was wrong? Who told you that the way you think about things is not acceptable? And so it starts so, so, so early, you know. And I remember my daughter who's now in college when she was in preschool, she wanted to wear her hair out. And it was this big, cute, curly afro when she had like these yellow bows. And when I picked her up at the end of the day, she was very upset because one of the boys had said her hair looked funny, she didn't wear her hair out like that - that was preschool - she didn't wear it out again until like eighth grade.

Rachel Bryant: Wow.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Right? From one person, like one person said this is unacceptable. And so, you know, we think back, what are the various times that we were taught we were unacceptable and the ways we changed ourselves in order to be either with this friendship group or romantically, or even in a job setting. And so those are kind of the everyday ways we can lose sight of ourselves. And then there are the larger ways which are experiences of trauma, right? So if we experience abandonment, physical abuse, verbal, sexual abuse, I would say the trauma of poverty and oppression, all of those, you know, we ultimately, I won't say, well, ultimately we want to be safe. And so we've learned to adjust and modify ourselves in the hopes of being safer. Yeah.

Rachel Bryant: I just want to breathe that whole piece in. And I can't even quantify the number of messages I've received in my life or that anyone has received in their life, that you're not good enough, that you don't fit the mold, the expectation, you know, a lot of us walk around like something's wrong with us.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes.

Rachel Bryant: It can be so deep until someone pushes that button. Like the one that was pushed in your daughter.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Right.

Rachel Bryant: So we're vulnerable. We're walking around in the world pretty vulnerable.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes. Yes. And even, so part of it can also be like representation, we can say representation matters. Like if you have a dream of becoming something and you have never seen someone who looks like you in that place, you know, that can also send the message. So it's not only what people have said to you, but it's also the invisibility, the erasure, the assumption of like you don't belong here, right? So we call that whether it's covert or overt, right? Subtle or blatant stereotype stigma, discrimination, not only around race and ethnicity, but gender, sexuality, disability, migration status, religion. And so we can get boxed in and end up living in reaction to other people's assumptions, which is like a full time job. And that's not free. So to reclaim myself is not to center what other people think of me, you know, and I don't say that in a naive sense. I know we are affected by other people's opinions about us, but that I retain the right to define myself. And I reclaim it. I reclaim it.

Rachel Bryant: Okay. Yes. Yes. It's always the people that you love the most too that can push that button, right?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Oh, absolutely, right?

Rachel Bryant: Yes, so it seems like you're always, you may always be doing the dance of homecoming in your life and recommitting to being at home and yourself.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yeah. It's an ongoing process. I love that you said that because we give people's opinions more weight in different circumstances, sometimes more weight or value from family. So, you know, people can spend their lives longing for the approval of certain people, right? Because you think like if this person doesn't love me, no one will. Or this person must know me more than anyone else. Or if they say that I'm stupid, it must be true. If they say I'm ugly, it must be true. And so proximity, you know, family, also people with status or authority, their opinions can weigh heavy when we talk about like power dynamics. And so, you know, even thinking about within ourselves, whose opinions is it easy for you to shake off? And who's like resonating like years later, you still hear what they said, or you still feel that or part of you even believes it.
Rachel Bryant: Yes, yes. You know, this is a workbook that you have written. And I went through it. I think you should take your time with this workbook, right? So I didn't do all of the exercises. But it makes you work. But in a good way, because you also incorporate creative expressive arts sort of exercises and somatic exercises and spiritual wisdom. The thing that I love the most, and I don't know that I've seen this much variety of Indigenous wisdom in any one book, self help workbook, if it's okay that I call this a self help book.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes, yes.

Rachel Bryant: Every chapter ended with Indigenous wisdom. And like from around the globe, there was Japanese Indigenous wisdom and African and Chicanx. And I wrote down a Jewish, and stuff from Islam, like there was so much Indigenous wisdom. And I don't think I've seen a collection like that as I've been contemplating my own beliefs in a workbook, like thinking through my own life progress to just be reaffirmed with that wisdom.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Thank you for naming that. I believe it's so important for mental health professionals to have more humility. As a discipline, as a field, we're relatively young. So I think it's like arrogant to say, if someone hasn't done psychotherapy, they've done no work on themselves. And I'm an advocate of therapy, I provide therapy, I'm in therapy. And at the same time, there are many, many pathways of healing. And in a lot of places in the world, therapy is not an option. So to assume that that means people are not whole is just arrogant. So it was important for me to acknowledge the various contributions that exist as you named from around the world. Because often what happens is, you know, scientists or scholars or mental health folks will gather information, say extract it from a culture, and then say like, I founded it. Like I was like, like I created this in 2024. Meanwhile, people have been doing this for generations. So it's a– it's another way of, you say, of truth telling, and also so that our young people who are growing up with various identities, don't believe that healing, wholeness, and wellness is something separate from who they are. You know, I love in the Chicano Affirmative Psychotherapy, their institute, they talk about, you know, therapy is an Indigenous healing form, because it's relational. It's like you go and seek out the elders and talk about whatever your issues are, and they will support you through it. And so, you know, it's the collective, it's that we're interrelated, it's showing up for each other, instead of just this idea that this is just some totally foreign concept to to who we are.

Rachel Bryant: Who are your Indigenous teachers? Where'd you get all this wisdom from?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Thank you. So I am so grateful to have been raised by Afrocentric parents. And they gave this wisdom to my brother and I in multiple ways. A big part of it was exposure, but I'll start even with the names. And so my name Thema means queen. And my middle name Simone is after the African American singer Nina Simone, who's a fire starter and a justice bringer. And my brother, Jamal's name means beautiful spirit. So I'd say starting with the naming. But then also in our community, I was– my father was a pastor, and really practiced what we would call liberation theology, which, you know, is in part, one, that marginalized people, minoritized people are not an afterthought of God. Some people try to say like, Oh, like, not loved or not sacred or not chosen, or like, you know, that God didn't have us in mind, versus, you know, like so beloved, right? We are so, so beloved. And, and that it's not just about afterlife, but like a liberation theology means our church was open all week long, because we had like a feeding program and a A.A. degree program. And, you know, all of the different components of holistic wellness of wanting us to be free on Earth, not just afterlife.

Rachel Bryant: Yes.

Dr. Thema Bryant: And so that that taught me and then, you know, we would always be a part of like Kwanzaa programming. And then I actually had the opportunity to live in Liberia, West Africa, for two years of high school. And that was life changing, because I, you know, like to tell people this is like pre-Obama, where people would say you could be anything you want to be, but you didn't really see it. And so to go to a place as a as a teenager at 14, to go somewhere and everyone in a place of authority in a position of authority look like me, like the head of the bank, the head of the school, the president of the university, every newscaster. So it opened up, you know, my imagination of what is possible. Before that I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland. And so to get and often, I will say grew up with those stereotypes about Africa, where what's what gets presented even when I told people I was moving there, they were like, what are you going to eat? Everyone is starving, or everyone is sick, or, you know, all of this negativity. And so to go there and see the beauty of it, the genius of it, the cultural richness, that allowed me when I started college to really have a greater sense of myself and a greater sense of like, global issues beyond my block, right? And so, yeah, those pieces really, really taught me well.

Rachel Bryant: Now that was a homecoming that you just described right there.

Dr. Thema Bryant: That was a homecoming. That was. Yes. And I can tell you, you know, so there are different domains of self-esteem. So you can feel good about yourself maybe as a writer, but not feel good about yourself in terms of making friends, or you can feel very confident in yourself in math, but not confident in sports, okay, so there are different domains. And I was one of those kids growing up that like always got A's. So I didn't, I had confidence about my ability to figure things out or to do whatever work was assigned. But growing up in Baltimore, there was definitely what we would call internalized racism that manifest as colorism. And so even though I was at a predominantly Black public school, there was a lot of teasing around complexion, around my features, like it was an insult to say you look like an African, you know, this is because of that brainwashing that that must be negative. So it was so powerful for me to as a teen girl to move to a place, I had the same face, the same features, and literally got off the plane and was praised. Like I had never experienced that before, right, that I went from ridicule to ce- to celebrated. And so that was so – we talked about homecoming – That was so healing for me to see beyond the narrow, Eurocentric beauty myths to be able to see, you know, not only the beauty in myself, but the beauty in all people. I remember when I started practicing, I had a Chinese American client who was dealing with colorism as well. Because at first I just thought it was something in the Black community, but of course learned that it's global. And, you know, her struggling to see the beauty in herself. And I was so glad I did that inner work, because in one session she asked me, Well, Dr. Bryant, do you think you're beautiful? And it was so important that as you that as we've said, that I could tell my truth that yes, I do. And I know it wasn't easy, like you're having to push past all of these messages that are trying to convince you of a lie so that you can see the glory that you are, right? And as you said, that's ongoing, that's a– you have to perpetually do that, because in a consistent way, you're getting these other messages.

Rachel Bryant: Yes, yes. Thank you for sharing that. I'm so inspired by that. And I don't think it's ever too late to maybe immerse yourself in your ancestral culture, like in that land and that place where you're celebrated.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes.

Rachel Bryant: You know, in a few ways, you you already started to answer a really important question I wanted to ask you, and so but I still want to ask it directly.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yeah.

Rachel Bryant: And so you talk about, in your writing, the need to decolonize therapy, and that that's more clear to me and maybe a lot of our listeners. And you described some of it in the book, like just including the ancestral wisdom and even in what you've shared already. My question was, do we also need to decolonize ministry? You're a psychologist and a minister. And so you started describing that, but I'd really like for you to be more directly to both of those because they're essentially both spiritual care.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes.

Rachel Bryant: Psychology is the is the soul, right? So is ministry. So, how and why do we need to decolonize both of those?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes, yes. Thank you so much. And definitely, you know, people often frame it as decolonizing theology, but it's ministry. It's all of those things, our sacred spaces. And I'll just step back for a minute for those who aren't familiar with the terminology first. And so we think about colonization, right? What does colonization do? It separates, it extracts, it attempts to dehumanize. It creates hierarchy, it oppresses, it steals. And so then to decolonize is considered a reclamation, right? Being able to reclaim truth, reclaiming land, reclaiming rights, reclaiming Indigenous ways, reclaiming yourself, right? And so then to decolonize sacred spaces, we would have to think about what are the ways in which they've been colonized, right? So one of them can be as simple as when we think about music, right? And I love all forms of music, but when we let kind of a racial hierarchy exist in that sacred space, then people would say more classical music is more sacred or sounds holier than like drums and guitars, right? So it's like, who says? Who says that in sacred space that we must always be silent? You know? And in our tradition in Black churches, they have a lot of call and response. And so if the minister says something to be able to say amen or something they've taken out of a lot of churches is they used to have a testimony service where people would get up and talk about the difficulties and challenges that they've overcome with God's help. And so interestingly, in liberation theology, which was coined by a Latin American psychologist, one of the healing formats is called testimonials. So it's telling our story. And we think about us often in sacred spaces or religious spaces in the present, being so afraid of being judged and condemned that we censor our story, that we lie, that we dilute ourselves, that we pretend to be perfect, that we pretend to have never had a past or, you know, never taken some detours. And so to decolonize our faith, our ministry, our theology is to worship in a way that connects with us culturally to not feel like I have to adopt a different culture to be close to God. It is to be able to be unashamed, you know, to be present. And also I would say to be able to see the divine, however you visualize that, to be able to see the divine in your image, right? So in sacred texts, it says, you know, that we're made in the image and likeness of God. So can you picture God in yourself? It was so funny growing up at a Black church in Baltimore, we had this huge mural on the wall. And one of my friends from school who was white spent the night at my house. And so - on a Saturday night - so on Sunday, we got up and went to church and we walked in and there's like the huge mural with the Black Jesus. And she said, who's that? And I had been so in this afrocentric space, I'm like, You don't know who Jesus is? You've never seen Jesus? So it's so funny how disturbed some people get. I was doing a presentation at a seminary, I won't say which one, but I was showing God as Asian, as woman, as Black, and people get very flustered, you know, if that is anything but a white man. And we have to decolonize like, that the sacred can only be in your image and likeness, right? You can't even imagine that any other embodiment could be sacred. So yeah.

Rachel Bryant: You take me back. I went to a similar church in Oakland, St. Colombo Church, we had kente cloth, and drums and guitars, saying Bill Withers songs instead of like, you know, like religious songs.

Dr. Thema Bryant: I love it.

Rachel Bryant: I loved it too. Yes. Yes. We're jumping ahead a little bit in the book, because I want to go deeper into this idea of our spirituality and what is sacred. And you talk about how important spirituality is and the difference between what you just said about feeling like you're loved by God, a positive sort of reinforcement from your spirituality, whatever that might be, whatever form, or internalizing sort of the anger or the shame that sometimes organized religion or forms of worship might put on you. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yeah.

Rachel Bryant: Because I think it can be both ways.

Dr. Thema Bryant: That's right.

Rachel Bryant: People find community and healing and they find hurt, depending on your identities, you know.

Dr. Thema Bryant: That's so true. It's so true. And it's really important for each of us to recognize the range of experiences people have had with sacred spaces. And often we can only imagine that people have had our experience, which, you know, is just a slice of the pie. So there are people for whom it has really saved their lives, you know, both the, you know, I would say the belief or faith, I would say for trauma survivors, sometimes we'll say things like, even though I didn't get justice on earth, I know ultimately this person is going to have to answer for what they did to me, and that gives them some sense of relief. For other people that sense of support. For some people it's a protective factor against engaging in unhealthy behaviors because they feel that would like dishonor their sacred commitments. And so for some people, it's love, it's hope, it's community, it's like all of these great things. And they can't imagine why people would not want it, right? And then there are people who have experienced what we call either religious abuse or church hurt, who have been condemned, violated, controlled, we talk about like places that are more cultish, taking their money, sexual abuse, all of these things. Or even if it wasn't like a physical or sexual or financial abuse, were put in such a place of shame and condemnation, where they're like, this is terrible. And I want to help everybody to reject it. So these are very different experiences. And we have to learn how to hear each other and to make room to hold in our heart the spaciousness for the truth, which is both of those things can be true at the same time. You know, and so for some people, this is what helps them to not only get through, but maybe even to thrive. And then for other people, they're like, it was so harmful, I had to get out of there. And that's why we say the range of sacred experiences. So some people will say, like, I will find the sacred in the arts or in nature, or in these other spiritual communities, I will say, whenever you have a group of people, you're going to have issues, right? Because some people will say, I'm leaving formal religion, and then they got into a yoga group, and then there was abuse in the yoga group. So that is one of the challenges of humanity, right, is sometimes, well, all the time, people don't live up to the fullness of the ideals or the values. But you want to be a community where at least that people are striving, where there's accountability, you know, where especially those in leadership are being intentional about trying to protect the space.

Rachel Bryant: Thank you for that affirmation of the range of experiences. And yeah, sometimes you step away and you come back different, you know, into a different community as you just described. And you find the sacred in other places. This conversation is sacred. This circle of people, we can't even see your faces right now, but we know you're there. This is sacred space that we're co-creating and I would also encourage you to maybe grab something to write with right now if you don't already have it. Because at some point, as I was reading your book, I realized that the reader also becomes the writer.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes. Yes, I love that.

Rachel Bryant: And that's really powerful, like storytelling or testifying or just journaling is a really powerful healing tool. And that once you go through that process, whether it's in writing or even verbally, like in testifying, like it becomes a healing tool that you can use over and over again to help other people. So I'm wondering if we're ready maybe to do a little bit of the exercises. And it's hard to choose because there's the writing pieces and the questions are so deep but accessible, I will say too. So you choose. And some of my favorites are also where you have the writer consider what color is that feeling that's coming through like what you're writing, what shape is it taking so. Thank you for that. And yes, could you take us through one of the exercises in the book?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes, I would love to. So there's a chapter on breakups and divorce. And that's an important one in terms of our healing. Interestingly, as you named, with me being a minister, I have not only provided premarital counseling but officiated weddings. And so, you know, part of weddings, a part of the formal vow, the traditional vows, it says, you know, I vow to I promise to, you know, be faithful in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer. And so what I invite us to do, because so many people idealize that and are waiting for that promise from another, and for us to start with vows to ourselves. Right? Do I vow to love myself with my imperfections? Do I vow to love myself when I am chosen and when I am rejected? Do I vow to love myself when I am winning and when it feels like I have failed? And even in terms of our aging, do I still choose me? Right. And so I would invite people to write some vows to yourself. What do you promise? Do you promise to choose yourself even when what happens? Right? Across seasons, across times, across finances, sometimes we're so pleased with ourselves when our money is right. When the money's not right, you know, we're mad at ourselves or beating ourselves up. You know, when we have it all together, we can feel easier to love. And what happens when it's not just what everybody else did, you know, maybe I dropped the ball, maybe I self-sabotaged, maybe I went back to an old habit, an old pattern. And so how will I treat myself? How will I delight in myself? How will I love myself? So, and it's also a way of helping people to recenter themselves because often after a breakup, there's a lot of outward focus, either focused on that other person or focused on who is going to replace that other person. And we haven't sat with the truth of us, right? Because once I sit with and heal myself, then things will shift going forward, right? Like when I really loved me, I choose differently. I have different boundaries. I have different requirements. And I show up differently. Yes. And so, yes, write some vows to yourself. And then as you're thinking about those vows, I will take us through a little embodiment. So it is a lot of stress we hold in our bodies. And I invite you to even think about where do you hold your stress? Mine is often like here and in my lower back, some of us it’s in the jaw. Some people keep the kind of like wrinkle forehead. Some people, the shoulders are up. In the belly, you know. And so we think about when I reclaim myself that I invite ease into my body. And so I will take us through some breath and I want you to know all of this is invitational. So that means it's not mandatory. I'm a trauma survivor. And a part of healing trauma is getting to have body sovereignty to get to choose, right? So just because someone says take a breath, you don't have to. You decide if you want to. So you're invited to and you can decide for yourself. So one self compassion hold, as we call it, is one hand on your heart and one hand on your belly. And you could just inhale in through the nose and exhale out through the mouth. And the hand that's on the belly, you can lift up to your forehead, inhaling in through the nose. Exhaling out through the mouth. And the last one, you can embrace yourself, hug yourself, inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through your mouth. And if it aligns with you, you can just say out loud, I choose me.

Rachel Bryant: I choose me.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Beautiful. It's a good choice. It's a good choice.

Rachel Bryant: She's never left me.

Dr. Thema Bryant: That's it.

Rachel Bryant: Well, externally. Right? Yes. Thank you for doing that. I think I'm going to make myself a nice dinner and do something special for myself and write my vows out with a lot more intention than this moment allowed, but that was a great exercise. I don't remember seeing that one in the book, but I like it. You do touch on things. So the other thing is that you storytell within the book. You give some real examples at the beginning of the chapter, like some real clients or friends or maybe even your own story in pseudonym about things that we go through in life. And I could really relate to that. Again, the workbook is so relatable because there is that storytelling, because there is that drawing on Indigenous wisdom. And I wondered if there was something, well, what has been the efficacy and the feedback that you've heard from people who've used the workbook? And has anything surprised you or have they taught you something more by using the workbook?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yeah.

Rachel Bryant: What has emerged?

Dr. Thema Bryant: So one, people love the stories as you're naming. Because I think like if we write in the abstract, it's like, self esteem is this, depression is this. But to see it in action, one, it helps people to see themselves, because they can either often relate themselves or they know someone it reminds them of. And so it helps them to  understand or have more compassion for how that person may be feeling. I will say, one of the things that's been striking to me is someone who said, Wow, you didn't waste any time, like you put us to work right away.

Rachel Bryant: It’s true. Right.

Dr. Thema Bryant: It's one of those where sometimes you may think you're asking a light question, but it forces us to think. I think one of the first questions I asked is, what is it you want to reclaim? What drew you to the title? And sometimes that is not even in our awareness. We just say, oh, that sounds interesting. But it's like, there's a reason maybe you notice something or you feel something might be missing, even a part of yourself. So it's, it is, I'll say the growing pains of self exploration. But then also people's enthusiasm for doing the work. And what people have said to me is what you said, which is, it's not to be done quickly. Right? You don't want to just like grab a pen and like, I'm going to finish this book tonight. You know, like you have to, you know, you're like, sit with it, sit with it. And if you have people in your life you trust, you know, talk to them about it, to deepen it, figure out how you might apply it. Like I even love you saying tonight, like make it into a ritual, have a meal, light a candle, put on some music, write your vows. So yeah, give yourself to the process instead of it just being something to check off a to-do list.

Rachel Bryant: Thank you for that. You know, something else though is funny to me, is that I was like, some of these chapters seem like you wrote this during the pandemic, because there's two sections that a lot of this happened during the pandemic. There was some breakups, which we just talked about.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yeah.

Rachel Bryant: But there was also people who re-evaluated their work situation. And there is a whole chapter on that. And if you don't mind, I actually, it was, this piece is so well written. And if you see yourself in what I'm about to just read a couple of sentences, unless you want to read it, it's page 141 in the book. So I'll just go there. “May you choose yourself over the money, title, status, reputation, prestige, and institution every time. Indigeneity maintains the core value of relationship over materialism. Your relationship with yourself, with nature, with your creator, with your ancestors, and with your family and community are most important. When we talk about relationships, people often skip themselves. Your relationship with yourself is an intentional honoring, protecting, loving of your physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, social, cultural self. Say it again. May you make decisions that honor the sacredness of you. When you're making decisions about work, may you put your labor in it’s proper perspective. You are more than your job, title, salary, years of service. You are a living soul who is worthy of care.” That was so beautiful to me.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Thank you for reading that. It felt good to hear it.

Rachel Bryant: And you know, I'm not, even if you're in love with the work that you're doing and you're, you know, you're not at that place, it's still an affirmation that you get up every day and exchange your energy and spend more of your time sometimes there with your family and friends. And so if it's not affirming you, that relationship is not healthy, it's time to do this section of the workbook.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes. And I love your insight with it. The book this is based on, Homecoming, was written during the pandemic. And so those chapters came out of that. And then, you know, the workbook kind of continues that conversation. But, you know, this culture can be so toxic, this society that presses for perpetual productivity and busyness. So that our work is somehow equated with our worthiness, right? So to recognize the ways in which we are defining ourselves, it is very problematic and unhealthy. And it also, a lot of times we prioritize endurance and perseverance in spaces that are unacceptable. Right? We're just like, you know, the work is unfulfilling, the coworkers treat me terribly, the supervisor doesn't respect me, but I've been there seven years. So I'm good. It's like, you know, what is the priority? And so if I reclaim my health, if I reclaim my peace, there are going to be some changes I have to make. So because I want to be well, because I want to live well, then I have to be honest about, is this well for me? Is this good for me? Is this destroying me? Right? Yeah. And what I tell, you know, why I give this part of it away, when you're in a toxic place, you know, the decision is, you know, is it you need to plan for your departure? So that may either be looking for another job, or you decide to be an entrepreneur and launch your own thing. Or if you are committed to staying, if they are not changing, then something within you has to change so they don't continue to kill you. Right? If I keep waiting for my supervisor to promote me, and like, that's not going to happen, then I have to stop setting myself up for disappointment or frustration, and approach the work differently.

Rachel Bryant: Yeah. I think there's often two sides to that story too. I think toxic environments, work or otherwise, relationships, sometimes we're the toxicity, and blaming everybody else is like a defense mechanism. So I want to shift and talk about emotional intelligence, which is also something that you talk about. In the book, you say “emotional intelligence is the capacity to recognize and to regulate your feelings, and to relate to others in a way that demonstrates a sensitivity to their feelings, enabling you to maintain healthy relationships.” Where do you learn emotional intelligence besides the school of hard knocks, right? And besides like a lot of trial and error, I don't think that this culture and oftentimes even our families teach us emotional intelligence.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes. Well, I'm going to make a connection between this question and the prior question is perfect around emotional intelligence and then jobs and like, am I the toxic one? So with emotional intelligence, you know, there can be, depending on how you define it, various components, but usually four major components. And that is my ability to recognize or be aware of my own emotional state. Right? So being honest with myself about how do I feel. And then second one, how do I regulate and express my feelings? So, you know, it's fine for me to be in touch with how I feel, but like, am I being destructive about it? Am I suppressing it? What am I doing with it? The third is my ability to perceive other people's emotional state. Right? Instead of assuming that everyone feels what I feel, which will mess you up because it's just not true. People are having, you could be in the same room and people are having a very different experience. And then the last one is my ability to create and maintain relationships with people with our various and sometimes differing emotional states. Right? So the example that came to mind for me is there was, I did a women's group in South Los Angeles for a number of years. And a woman came in and she was very upset and she was sharing that on her job, she had been working hard for this promotion. And she was upset she didn't get it. But then what she went on to describe is she, even before not getting it, she didn't like her boss. And so she would never speak to the boss and she would hate when the boss would kind of come over to her cubicle and say something to her. She would be upset. And she kept to herself, kept her head down and just tried to work hard. So one, I want to tell people, you know, most jobs are not a meritocracy, meaning hard work alone is not going to get the promotion. A big part is relational. Right? So she already made it clear she didn't like this lady. She never spoke to this lady. And then she said, when she went, when she found out she didn't get the promotion, she goes to speak with the supervisor and ask, why didn't she get it? And the woman said, you need to work on your emotional intelligence. And the woman says to me, she made this up, meaning like she  had never heard the term before. So she didn't know it was a real thing. Right? And but everything she's describing about how she moves around that workplace, lets me know like there's no emotional intel– Like you, you cannot be hostile toward the person and believe they're going to promote you. It's not going to work. Right? So it is important for us to be able to see ourselves, to be aware of ourselves. And this doesn't mean to blame and shame yourself for everything. Like we have to let everything carry its own weight. Right? So there are people who are problematic. There are systems and structures that are problematic. Isms and oppression is problematic. And with all of that, I also have to take stock of myself to say like, what are my strengths? What are the things I could have done better? What are the things I want to work on? And then how do I express that so that I can get some better outcomes?

Rachel Bryant: It's harder than sometimes people realize to name feelings because the most common feelings are– like we're limited even in our culture of how many feelings– you feel happy, you feel sad, you feel angry, you feel sleepy. But there's so many more feelings like literally my own therapist gave me a feeling chart and I'm like, wow, like I have choices here.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes, a lot of choices.

Rachel Bryant: Yes, a lot of choices and differentiating even between feelings or emotions and body sensations. Our bodies don't lie. I don't care what's coming out your mouth or what you're trying to convince yourself. You know, if your stomach is dropping or your chest is tightening, that's sending you information too about how you're breathing in. So those things need to align. I'm going to give you the final word. Is there anything else that you wanted to share that we haven't asked you about or that's arising in your heart?

Dr. Thema Bryant: Yes, I want to say that reclaiming yourself is a journey with detours and imperfections. And so not to judge yourself harshly, to give yourself grace and compassion. Sometimes when people see persons like me or you, they can assume like we always get it right, right, or always have the answers or have always like lined everything up just so. And that is far from the truth. That, you know, it's a growing process. And I pull the wisdom out of my wounds and keep letting myself evolve and grow. And so when you stumble, don't quit. You know, when you stumble, give yourself a breather and then continue on your journey. You're worth the journey.

Rachel Bryant: Thank you, Dr. Thema, for being here with this online community tonight. You certainly have brought a healing upon us and thank you for the dedication to the work. Keep writing, keep telling those stories for us. Thank you so much.

Dr. Thema Bryant: Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, Nikki Roda, and Pele Shalev. CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.